Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
31 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle

Marcus (OOo)
Just to let you all know that we as Apache OpenOffice Project are very
happy that Ariel is back and want to say a warm welcome to him.

He is writing in mailing lists and has done already many committs to
participate more in the project.

Ariel, hopefully you feel well and have recognized many known places
here. :-)

Welcome back!

Marcus

(on behalf of the Apache OpenOffice PMC)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle

Matthias Seidel
+1

Am 18.11.19 um 21:57 schrieb Marcus:

> Just to let you all know that we as Apache OpenOffice Project are very
> happy that Ariel is back and want to say a warm welcome to him.
>
> He is writing in mailing lists and has done already many committs to
> participate more in the project.
>
> Ariel, hopefully you feel well and have recognized many known places
> here. :-)
>
> Welcome back!
>
> Marcus
>
> (on behalf of the Apache OpenOffice PMC)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>


smime.p7s (5K) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle

Dave Fisher-3
+1000! Ariel’s energy is a big lift to the community!

Regards,
Dave

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 18, 2019, at 1:28 PM, Matthias Seidel <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> +1
>
>> Am 18.11.19 um 21:57 schrieb Marcus:
>> Just to let you all know that we as Apache OpenOffice Project are very
>> happy that Ariel is back and want to say a warm welcome to him.
>>
>> He is writing in mailing lists and has done already many committs to
>> participate more in the project.
>>
>> Ariel, hopefully you feel well and have recognized many known places
>> here. :-)
>>
>> Welcome back!
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>> (on behalf of the Apache OpenOffice PMC)
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle

Kay Schenk-2
In reply to this post by Marcus (OOo)
Great to hear about April's return. Wonderful news!

_______________________
Kay Schenk

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019, 12:57 Marcus <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just to let you all know that we as Apache OpenOffice Project are very
> happy that Ariel is back and want to say a warm welcome to him.
>
> He is writing in mailing lists and has done already many committs to
> participate more in the project.
>
> Ariel, hopefully you feel well and have recognized many known places
> here. :-)
>
> Welcome back!
>
> Marcus
>
> (on behalf of the Apache OpenOffice PMC)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle

Kay Schenk-2
_______________________
Sent from MzK's phone.

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019, 09:06 Kay Schenk <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Great to hear about April's return. Wonderful news!
>

Oy! Ariel's NOT April's


> _______________________
> Kay Schenk
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019, 12:57 Marcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Just to let you all know that we as Apache OpenOffice Project are very
>> happy that Ariel is back and want to say a warm welcome to him.
>>
>> He is writing in mailing lists and has done already many committs to
>> participate more in the project.
>>
>> Ariel, hopefully you feel well and have recognized many known places
>> here. :-)
>>
>> Welcome back!
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>> (on behalf of the Apache OpenOffice PMC)
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle

Jörg Schmidt-2
In reply to this post by Marcus (OOo)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcus [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 9:57 PM
> To: dev@
> Subject: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle
>
> Just to let you all know that we as Apache OpenOffice Project
> are very
> happy that Ariel is back and want to say a warm welcome to him.
>
> He is writing in mailing lists and has done already many committs to
> participate more in the project.
>
> Ariel, hopefully you feel well and have recognized many known places
> here. :-)
>
> Welcome back!
>
> Marcus
>
> (on behalf of the Apache OpenOffice PMC)

Can you please explain to me what "back in our PMC" means?

In my opinion, Ariel had never leave the PMC. If I am wrong, where is it possible to see who is in the PMC and who is not? I thought so far the page https://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#openoffice-pmc shows the current members of the PMC?


greetings,
Jörg


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle

Dave Fisher-2


> On Nov 19, 2019, at 11:08 AM, Jörg Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Marcus [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 9:57 PM
>> To: dev@
>> Subject: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle
>>
>> Just to let you all know that we as Apache OpenOffice Project
>> are very
>> happy that Ariel is back and want to say a warm welcome to him.
>>
>> He is writing in mailing lists and has done already many committs to
>> participate more in the project.
>>
>> Ariel, hopefully you feel well and have recognized many known places
>> here. :-)
>>
>> Welcome back!
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>> (on behalf of the Apache OpenOffice PMC)
>
> Can you please explain to me what "back in our PMC" means?

Better wording would be “has reengaged in OpenOffice development.
>
> In my opinion, Ariel had never leave the PMC. If I am wrong, where is it possible to see who is in the PMC and who is not? I thought so far the page https://people.apache.org/committers-by-project.html#openoffice-pmc shows the current members of the PMC?

Correct.

Indeed merit does not expire. He is a good example of why PMC membership is not purged.

Regards,
Dave

>
>
> greetings,
> Jörg
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle

Jörg Schmidt-2
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Fisher [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 8:24 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle
>
>
>
> > On Nov 19, 2019, at 11:08 AM, Jörg Schmidt
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >

> > Can you please explain to me what "back in our PMC" means?
>
> Better wording would be “has reengaged in OpenOffice development.

Thank you. That's very interesting.

Is it at all clear to the PMC members that this was the background to my proposal, which was strongly rejected some time ago?


Your answer today makes one thing clear:
there are PMC members who are currently actively involved in OpenOffice development and those who are not.
And my whole concern was: Where can I see who is currently active?

Maybe now it's easier to understand that it wasn't my intention to remove non-active people from the PMC, but only to clearly mark who is currently active.


And please: it is not enough to look up who is committing code, because we also have committers who work elsewhere.


greetings,
Jörg


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)

Peter Kovacs-3
Hello Jörg,


It is still unclear why you want to track activity. Can you elaborate on
this point maybe?


Cheers,

Peter


On 19.11.19 21:52, Jörg Schmidt wrote:

>  
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dave Fisher [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 8:24 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 19, 2019, at 11:08 AM, Jörg Schmidt
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Can you please explain to me what "back in our PMC" means?
>> Better wording would be “has reengaged in OpenOffice development.
> Thank you. That's very interesting.
>
> Is it at all clear to the PMC members that this was the background to my proposal, which was strongly rejected some time ago?
>
>
> Your answer today makes one thing clear:
> there are PMC members who are currently actively involved in OpenOffice development and those who are not.
> And my whole concern was: Where can I see who is currently active?
>
> Maybe now it's easier to understand that it wasn't my intention to remove non-active people from the PMC, but only to clearly mark who is currently active.
>
>
> And please: it is not enough to look up who is committing code, because we also have committers who work elsewhere.
>
>
> greetings,
> Jörg
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)

Jörg Schmidt-2
Hello Peter,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:50 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in
> our PMC and developer circle)
>
> Hello Jörg,
>
>
> It is still unclear why you want to track activity. Can you
> elaborate on
> this point maybe?

First let me say: I don't think it is necessary to find out in real time who is active at the moment, it would probably be enough to publish it once a month.

Why do I want to know who is active?
For decisions of the PMC the majority principle applies (imho). The majority, however, depends on the votes (respectively the opinions) of the people who are currently active.


And in the long run: Has no one really thought about the principle that no one can be excluded from the PMC and that third parties can install majorities there?

for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I think there is a certain difference between the activity of people who only work in the project because they are paid for it by companies and people who work in the project out of their own interest.


greetings,
Jörg


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)

Dr. Michael Stehmann-2
Hello,

Am 20.11.19 um 09:33 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:

> Hello Peter,
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:50 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in
>> our PMC and developer circle)
>>
>> Hello Jörg,
>>
>>
>> It is still unclear why you want to track activity. Can you
>> elaborate on
>> this point maybe?
>
> First let me say: I don't think it is necessary to find out in real time who is active at the moment, it would probably be enough to publish it once a month.
>
> Why do I want to know who is active?
> For decisions of the PMC the majority principle applies (imho). The majority, however, depends on the votes (respectively the opinions) of the people who are currently active.
>
>
> And in the long run: Has no one really thought about the principle that no one can be excluded from the PMC and that third parties can install majorities there?
>
> for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I think there is a certain difference between the activity of people who only work in the project because they are paid for it by companies and people who work in the project out of their own interest.
>
IMO the best way to improve a system is to solve its practical problems.

I do not remember any case, in which a permanent inactive PMC member
"jumps out of the box" to influence a voting.

I do not see any PMC member, which tries to undercut AOO in
collaboration with others.

IMO the influence of third parties, esp. enterprises is in AOO more
negligible than it is in other Apache projects.

The influence of enterprises were drastic in the moment they stopped
supporting us. And unfortunately I do not know any enterprise, who is
willing to support us substantially in future. That is one of our actual
problems.

So IMO we should focus our energy and resources to solve the practical
problems we really have.

As an example:
Let us reflect, how we can transact the proposals of Patricia to recruit
new developers.

And another one:
Let us reflect, how we get the infrastructure we need to work well.

Kind regards
Michael




signature.asc (201 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)

Jörg Schmidt-2
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 10:14 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back
> in our PMC and developer circle)
>
> Hello,
>
> Am 20.11.19 um 09:33 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
> > Hello Peter,
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:[hidden email]]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:50 AM
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in
> >> our PMC and developer circle)
> >>
> >> Hello Jörg,
> >>
> >>
> >> It is still unclear why you want to track activity. Can you
> >> elaborate on
> >> this point maybe?
> >
> > First let me say: I don't think it is necessary to find out
> in real time who is active at the moment, it would probably
> be enough to publish it once a month.
> >
> > Why do I want to know who is active?
> > For decisions of the PMC the majority principle applies
> (imho). The majority, however, depends on the votes
> (respectively the opinions) of the people who are currently active.
> >
> >
> > And in the long run: Has no one really thought about the
> principle that no one can be excluded from the PMC and that
> third parties can install majorities there?
> >
> > for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I
> think there is a certain difference between the activity of
> people who only work in the project because they are paid for
> it by companies and people who work in the project out of
> their own interest.
> >

> I do not remember any case, in which a permanent inactive PMC member
> "jumps out of the box" to influence a voting.

I have not mentioned any names (elsewhere) because I do not want to turn against people, because I don't hold them responsible for what companies have done.
On the other hand, why is it merit for people if they have only done their paid job...

For me, and this may be my personal opinion, one must not put good agreement above success - you have to find a balance between both things.

> The influence of enterprises were drastic in the
> moment they stopped supporting us.

Exactly, and why are no consequences drawn? The problem was not that the company stopped its support, but that one company was doing it at absolutely the wrong time and under the wrong circumstances.

Where was the PMC in this situation? Where was the attempt to influence? Where was the will to discuss things openly with the community?




Enough for today, because I feel that any attempt at critical discussion here is only perceived as disturbing.



greetings,
Jörg



---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)

Dave Fisher-2


> On Nov 20, 2019, at 3:12 AM, Jörg Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 10:14 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back
>> in our PMC and developer circle)
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Am 20.11.19 um 09:33 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>>> Hello Peter,
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:50 AM
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Subject: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in
>>>> our PMC and developer circle)
>>>>
>>>> Hello Jörg,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is still unclear why you want to track activity. Can you
>>>> elaborate on
>>>> this point maybe?
>>>
>>> First let me say: I don't think it is necessary to find out
>> in real time who is active at the moment, it would probably
>> be enough to publish it once a month.
>>>
>>> Why do I want to know who is active?
>>> For decisions of the PMC the majority principle applies
>> (imho). The majority, however, depends on the votes
>> (respectively the opinions) of the people who are currently active.
>>>
>>>
>>> And in the long run: Has no one really thought about the
>> principle that no one can be excluded from the PMC and that
>> third parties can install majorities there?
>>>
>>> for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I
>> think there is a certain difference between the activity of
>> people who only work in the project because they are paid for
>> it by companies and people who work in the project out of
>> their own interest.
>>>
>
>> I do not remember any case, in which a permanent inactive PMC member
>> "jumps out of the box" to influence a voting.
>
> I have not mentioned any names (elsewhere) because I do not want to turn against people, because I don't hold them responsible for what companies have done.
> On the other hand, why is it merit for people if they have only done their paid job...

At the Foundation we expect that everyone working on a project are doing so as individuals and any merit attained is as an individual. [1] In the initial formation of a project at The ASF the original PMC and Committers is often determined in part by those entities who are bringing the donation to the Foundation. Incubation is about helping project communities to work in the “Apache Way”. [2] OpenOffice.org’s proposal was unique in that the Initial Committer list was made open for all those who were interested. I signed up as interested as did some other members of the Apache POI PMC (we were interested in MSFT document compatibility). I took it upon myself to help with Infrastructure like the websites, confluence wikis, and domain names.


>
> For me, and this may be my personal opinion, one must not put good agreement above success - you have to find a balance between both things.
>
>> The influence of enterprises were drastic in the
>> moment they stopped supporting us.
>
> Exactly, and why are no consequences drawn? The problem was not that the company stopped its support, but that one company was doing it at absolutely the wrong time and under the wrong circumstances.

When IBM withdrew support it did not mean that PMC Members who were employed by IBM stopped contributing. They stopped as individuals slowly over time.

We had one PMC Chair who seriously started a discussion about shutting down the project. Yet, we still continue. All as volunteers - as far as we know.

>
> Where was the PMC in this situation? Where was the attempt to influence? Where was the will to discuss things openly with the community?

Personally I was very busy elsewhere. IMO there was a lot of shock and it took some time for the project to recover and continue producing releases.

>
>
>
>
> Enough for today, because I feel that any attempt at critical discussion here is only perceived as disturbing.

Not necessarily. It would be a little easier if you started a separate thread ;-)

Regards,
Dave

[1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#hats
[2] https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
[3] https://community.apache.org/projectIndependence.html#apache-projects-are-managed-independently

>
>
>
> greetings,
> Jörg
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: volunteer activity tracking

Hagar Delest-2
In reply to this post by Jörg Schmidt-2
Le 20/11/2019 à 09:33, Jörg Schmidt a écrit :
> for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I think there
> is a certain difference between the activity of people who only work
> in the project because they are paid for it by companies and people
> who work in the project out of their own interest.
I don't understand the point. If he someone is paid to work on the
project, at least he produces something. Why would it be considered less
than the energy put by someone contributing of his own? What if the guy
is paid AND he likes what he does?

If there was any 3rd party influence, that would mean that at least
someone is trying to steer the project with some agenda. According to
the development level of the project, I'm not sure we should be afraid
about that, or should we?

Let's be realistic and work on the problems instead of preventing
hypothetical wrong use of the instances.

Hagar (EN Forum moderator)
Not a developer, just admiring those remaining on the project.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)

Peter Kovacs-3
In reply to this post by Jörg Schmidt-2
hi everyone,


Since I joined the Project I have the feeling that people who still feel
that they belong to the openoffice.org community do not understand how
the ASF operates.

I have the feeling Jörgs issues belongs to the same category.

We do not have the Issue of a company that dominates OpenOffice. And I
say every company has a hard time to do so, because of the people on the
project.

Lets take a minute, to take a look on the case. In my opinion a
dominating company dominates by development power. They can push through
development decision

on the dev list using their developers. The PMC in the sense of Project
domination is not that important.

The PMC decides:

1) trademark enforcement of the market name OpenOffice.

2) decides how our funds are spend. (we have less then you think ;) and
these funds are a special case left overs from Oracle )

3) organize funds from the foundation if we need money for a topic.
(like the trademark is paid from the funds.

4) It decides who can become a committer and who is invited to the PMC.
(this is the most obvious power to lock down a project, and the most
obvious.)

5) media / press communication

6) company / privat person inquery / complain address.

I think except for 4) all point are not meaning full from a domination
perspective.


Now the Foundation as such is aware that companies can dominate. So the
Foundation has some mechanism to control and act.

1) the board. Once a quarter the report is filed and reviewed by the board.

2) the mentors. When a project becomes a podling in the incubator
mentors are supervising the project and help teaching the ASF way.

After the incubator ends, the mentors remain in the projects. Our
mentors are very silent because of the very experienced people we have.

3) ASF Members. Every ASF Member has full access to the private List.


I hope this helps and my view is complete.

So Jörg, you are fine with the ASF is our Steward and nothing more as
the Steward?

We had this issue with the paid resources, where the ASF will not pay
for developers because they only Steward the projects.

So we still have this topic on building our own community organization
which can fills such a role. But this is OT. If we want to discuss this
topic, please make a seperate topic.

Also for companies or recruiting. Just discuss it in an own topic.


All the Best

Peter

On 20.11.19 12:12, Jörg Schmidt wrote:

>  
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 10:14 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back
>> in our PMC and developer circle)
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Am 20.11.19 um 09:33 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>>> Hello Peter,
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:50 AM
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Subject: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in
>>>> our PMC and developer circle)
>>>>
>>>> Hello Jörg,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is still unclear why you want to track activity. Can you
>>>> elaborate on
>>>> this point maybe?
>>> First let me say: I don't think it is necessary to find out
>> in real time who is active at the moment, it would probably
>> be enough to publish it once a month.
>>> Why do I want to know who is active?
>>> For decisions of the PMC the majority principle applies
>> (imho). The majority, however, depends on the votes
>> (respectively the opinions) of the people who are currently active.
>>>
>>> And in the long run: Has no one really thought about the
>> principle that no one can be excluded from the PMC and that
>> third parties can install majorities there?
>>> for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I
>> think there is a certain difference between the activity of
>> people who only work in the project because they are paid for
>> it by companies and people who work in the project out of
>> their own interest.
>> I do not remember any case, in which a permanent inactive PMC member
>> "jumps out of the box" to influence a voting.
> I have not mentioned any names (elsewhere) because I do not want to turn against people, because I don't hold them responsible for what companies have done.
> On the other hand, why is it merit for people if they have only done their paid job...
>
> For me, and this may be my personal opinion, one must not put good agreement above success - you have to find a balance between both things.
>
>> The influence of enterprises were drastic in the
>> moment they stopped supporting us.
> Exactly, and why are no consequences drawn? The problem was not that the company stopped its support, but that one company was doing it at absolutely the wrong time and under the wrong circumstances.
>
> Where was the PMC in this situation? Where was the attempt to influence? Where was the will to discuss things openly with the community?
>
>
>
>
> Enough for today, because I feel that any attempt at critical discussion here is only perceived as disturbing.
>
>
>
> greetings,
> Jörg
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)

Jörg Schmidt-2
In reply to this post by Dave Fisher-2
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Fisher [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 4:51 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back
> in our PMC and developer circle)

> At the Foundation we expect that everyone working on a
> project are doing so as individuals and any merit attained is
> as an individual. [1] In the initial formation of a project
> at The ASF the original PMC and Committers is often
> determined in part by those entities who are bringing the
> donation to the Foundation. Incubation is about helping
> project communities to work in the “Apache Way”. [2]
> OpenOffice.org’s proposal was unique in that the Initial
> Committer list was made open for all those who were
> interested. I signed up as interested as did some other
> members of the Apache POI PMC (we were interested in MSFT
> document compatibility). I took it upon myself to help with
> Infrastructure like the websites, confluence wikis, and domain names.

Absolutely clear for me and absolutely no problem for me!

I had already made explicit reference to the ASF rules, and of course the usual procedures also belong to them for me.
 

> > For me, and this may be my personal opinion, one must not
> put good agreement above success - you have to find a balance
> between both things.
> >
> >> The influence of enterprises were drastic in the
> >> moment they stopped supporting us.
> >
> > Exactly, and why are no consequences drawn? The problem was
> not that the company stopped its support, but that one
> company was doing it at absolutely the wrong time and under
> the wrong circumstances.
>
> When IBM withdrew support it did not mean that PMC Members
> who were employed by IBM stopped contributing. They stopped
> as individuals slowly over time.
>
> We had one PMC Chair who seriously started a discussion about
> shutting down the project.

Thank you for this (imho) very important info. Not good that the community was not informed about it, but this info was apparently only known internally.



greetings,
Jörg


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back in our PMC and developer circle)

Jörg Schmidt-2
In reply to this post by Peter Kovacs-3
Hello,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 8:32 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking (was: Ariel is back
> in our PMC and developer circle)
>
> hi everyone,
> [...]

I did not complain about the dominance of a company!


I don't want to say anything more about the rest because I consider it pointless. I feel that an open discussion is not desired, I have to take note of that.

These statements do not concern you Peter, but others. You, Peter, have tried to help me several times, my thanks for that.



greetings,
Jörg


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: volunteer activity tracking

Jörg Schmidt-2
In reply to this post by Hagar Delest-2
Hello,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hagar Delest [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:29 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking
>
> Le 20/11/2019 à 09:33, Jörg Schmidt a écrit :
> > for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I
> think there
> > is a certain difference between the activity of people who
> only work
> > in the project because they are paid for it by companies and people
> > who work in the project out of their own interest.
> I don't understand the point. If he someone is paid to work on the
> project, at least he produces something. Why would it be
> considered less
> than the energy put by someone contributing of his own? What
> if the guy
> is paid AND he likes what he does?

My opinion is that "merit" is something specific other than "important" (Your wording was: "Why would it be considered less..."). "merit" is something very personal.

For me, this is personal because each of us, with skill, effort and perhaps also some luck, can earn and donate any amount of money.  On the other hand the day has only 24 hours for each of us and nobody can increase this time.

And please, don't get me wrong:
the support by companies or other donors, I don't think is unimportant or of less value in the core, but "merit" is something which for me also contains a pinch of what one could call "honor". (Perhaps not the best choice of words, but hopefully understandable)


> If there was any 3rd party influence, that would mean that at least
> someone is trying to steer the project with some agenda. According to
> the development level of the project, I'm not sure we should
> be afraid
> about that, or should we?

The "development level of the project" is not a criterion for this.


greetings,
Jörg







>
> If there was any 3rd party influence, that would mean that at least
> someone is trying to steer the project with some agenda. According to
> the development level of the project, I'm not sure we should
> be afraid
> about that, or should we?
>
> Let's be realistic and work on the problems instead of preventing
> hypothetical wrong use of the instances.
>
> Hagar (EN Forum moderator)
> Not a developer, just admiring those remaining on the project.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: volunteer activity tracking

Branko Čibej
On 21.11.2019 13:35, Jörg Schmidt wrote:

> Hello,
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Hagar Delest [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:29 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking
>>
>> Le 20/11/2019 à 09:33, Jörg Schmidt a écrit :
>>> for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I
>> think there
>>> is a certain difference between the activity of people who
>> only work
>>> in the project because they are paid for it by companies and people
>>> who work in the project out of their own interest.
>> I don't understand the point. If he someone is paid to work on the
>> project, at least he produces something. Why would it be
>> considered less
>> than the energy put by someone contributing of his own? What
>> if the guy
>> is paid AND he likes what he does?
> My opinion is that "merit" is something specific other than "important" (Your wording was: "Why would it be considered less..."). "merit" is something very personal.
>
> For me, this is personal because each of us, with skill, effort and perhaps also some luck, can earn and donate any amount of money.  On the other hand the day has only 24 hours for each of us and nobody can increase this time.
>
> And please, don't get me wrong:
> the support by companies or other donors, I don't think is unimportant or of less value in the core, but "merit" is something which for me also contains a pinch of what one could call "honor". (Perhaps not the best choice of words, but hopefully understandable)



I have not heard of a single instance in the history of the ASF where
merit was bought -- either through donations or through salaried
employees. I'm sure there have been attempts, we all know what nonsense
"smart" managers are capable of coming up with.

If you have evidence that specific people have a secret agenda to
undermine or otherwise steer this project in ways that are not in the
best interests of the users, then by all means bring it up, either here,
or on the private@ list, or to the Board. Open discussion is definitely
encouraged at the ASF.

But please be careful if you do: saying "I have a feeling" is not evidence.

-- Brane

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: volunteer activity tracking

Jörg Schmidt-2
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Branko Čibej [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 2:16 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking


> I have not heard of a single instance in the history of the ASF where
> merit was bought -- either through donations or through salaried
> employees. I'm sure there have been attempts, we all know
> what nonsense
> "smart" managers are capable of coming up with.

And I didn't(!!!) say anyone intended to buy "merit". I was talking about legally acquired merit.

Or are members of the PMC not allowed to have different opinions when voting? And if they may, may they not have different opinions in the future than at the time when they became a PMC member?



greetings,
Jörg


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

12