Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy

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Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy

David Wilson-7
I notice that the Marketing Strategy Plan 2010 has listed as the special needs
for Education the following 4 points-

• an Access style database
• there is a lot of content and support material for MS-Office and very little
   for OpenOffice.org
• difficulty in network installations on Windows XP
• lack of brand awareness, confusion between StarOffice (which is available  
   free under Sun's Educational Licencing scheme28).

This list leaves out the requirements of higher Education and Academic and
research users. These users will not take up OpenOffice or StarOffice until
we provide adequate citation and bibliographic support. Many people in
Universities and research Institutes have written to me expressing this
sentiment.

We are trying to promote OpenOffice in Universities but the student's
professors and academic staff would not use it or recommend it because of its
poor bibliographic support. My University's IT department distributes
OpenOffce for free, but the Academic departments recommend students use
Endnotes for bibliographic management. Endnotes only works properly with MS
Word. They have purchased a University wide licence and distribute Endnotes
for free !.  To gain this market we need to compete against Endnotes.

Until recently OpenOffice could claim to at least have bibliographic some
support whilst MS Word did not have any. The situation is now reversed. Word
2007  has significantly better bibliographic support than OpenOffice. But not
better support that that planned for OpenOffice by the Bibliographic project.

Given this situation I propose that a fifth dot point be added to this list-

• Bibliographic support competitive with commercial products.

I raised this in late 2004, and Daniel Carrera asked whether "We  Should we
mention features in the SMP? I'm thinking that if we include every important
feature, we'll end up with a much longer SMP, and it's already 58 pages!"

In terms of the higher Education market bibliographic support is not
'feature', it is a strategic requirement. If we do not have it we are not in
it.



regards


David Wilson







--
-------------------
David N. Wilson
Co-Project Lead for the Bibliographic
OpenOffice Project
http://bibliographic.openoffice.org

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Re: Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy

Bruce D'Arcus

On Jun 14, 2006, at 2:49 AM, David Wilson wrote:

> y University's IT department distributes
> OpenOffce for free, but the Academic departments recommend students use
> Endnotes for bibliographic management.

Minor correction: Endnote, not Endnotes.

> Until recently OpenOffice could claim to at least have bibliographic
> some
> support whilst MS Word did not have any. The situation is now
> reversed. Word
> 2007  has significantly better bibliographic support than OpenOffice.

Strongly underline this point.

> Given this situation I propose that a fifth dot point be added to this
> list-

[...]

> In terms of the higher Education market bibliographic support is not
> 'feature', it is a strategic requirement. If we do not have it we are
> not in
> it.

I have to say, I've about lost all faith in OOo. The community (ahem,
let's be specific: Sun) seems really not to understand or care about
what we are trying to do, and even the generic requirements we have to
make it technically easier for developers to implement seems not to be
a priority. Even worse, I have no sense of a community process that
actually sets these priorities.

The reality is Word is a better word processor than Writer, it is used
by 99% of the people in my field (I have literally never heard of
anyone who uses OpenOffice, but simply assume there are one or two out
there), and it will now have really good built-in citation support.  So
why would even I or anyone else in higher ed bother with OOo?

Bruce

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Re: Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy

Matt Price-3
Quoting Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]>:

>
> On Jun 14, 2006, at 2:49 AM, David Wilson wrote:

> > Given this situation I propose that a fifth dot point be added to this
> > list-
>
> [...]
>
> > In terms of the higher Education market bibliographic support is not
> > 'feature', it is a strategic requirement. If we do not have it we are
> > not in
> > it.
>
> I have to say, I've about lost all faith in OOo. The community (ahem,
> let's be specific: Sun) seems really not to understand or care about
> what we are trying to do, and even the generic requirements we have to
> make it technically easier for developers to implement seems not to be
> a priority. Even worse, I have no sense of a community process that
> actually sets these priorities.
>
> The reality is Word is a better word processor than Writer, it is used
> by 99% of the people in my field (I have literally never heard of
> anyone who uses OpenOffice, but simply assume there are one or two out
> there), and it will now have really good built-in citation support.  So
> why would even I or anyone else in higher ed bother with OOo?
>

I'm afraid I have to echo this point, perhaps not quite so harshly as Bruce (I
haven't noticed any otheri mportant deficiencies in OO Writer, while Bruce I
guess sees some).  As a scholar in the humanities, I have been hoping for years
that OOo would introduce some kind of decent bibliographic support.  For the
second year in a row, the OOo core team has set the priority of the biblio
project so low that no one is even willing to supervise a Google SoC student to
do the necessary work.

I think OOo needs to understand two things that David has already mentioned:
(a) scholars CAN'T use OOo in its present state, and thus will never recommend
it to their students;
(b) it is precisely in the higher-education learning environment that people set
their software-using habits for their adult lives.  That is, if people don't
start using OOo at University or other post-secondary institutions, they are
highly unlikely to ever pick it up later, or to incorporate it into their
small/medium/large businesses.  So while higher education may seem like a niche
market, it's actually very important (which is why MS products are handed out
cheap at universities).  

I'm embarking on a new research project now, and for the first time in 5 years
I've kept the windows partition on my new computer; I'm going to install MS
Office and EndNote.  I hate to do it, but I feel I really have no other choice.  

Matt

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Re: Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy

Matej Cepl-2
[hidden email] wrote:
> As a scholar in the humanities, I have been hoping for years
> that OOo would introduce some kind of decent bibliographic support.  For
>
> I'm embarking on a new research project now, and for the first time in 5
> years I've kept the windows partition on my new computer; I'm going to
> install MS Office and EndNote.  I hate to do it, but I feel I really have
> no other  choice.

I have actually went now through the similar process of disappointment with
OpenOffice.org and I am humbly returning to LyX (http://www.lyx.org; editor
using LaTeX as its back-end). I am PhD candidate in sociology/criminology,
so my requirements are probably similar to yours. Although BibTeX is far
from perfect (Bruce will probably reply in litany of problems with BibTeX
and he is right), with whatever limitations it has it just works. If you
are starting new project, so the downstream compatibility is not the
biggest issue, I would strongly suggest you to take a look. The next step
after installation is to subscribe to [hidden email] (send empty
email to [hidden email] ) -- I consider the community
around LyX to be one of the most pleasant and newbie-friendly on the
Internet.

Concerning the future of whole OOo-bibliographic project -- isn't it the
time to think about Plan B? I have still in the back of my bran, that there
actually IS working bibliographic manager for OpenOffice.org; I mean, Bibus
<http://bibus-biblio.sourceforge.net/>. It is ugly as hell, its database
structure is ugly as hell (just slightly upgraded current OOo
Bibliography), etc. but it works. Would it be possible to enter into some
kind of negotiation with its maintainer (Pierre Martineau
<[hidden email]>) with this plan:

1) we could offer him nice hosting at openoffice.org (CVS, web, list,
issuezilla, etc.) plus PR value of being the official bibliographic support
for OOo.
2) the work should begin with making sure that bibus actually works on all
platforms were OOo is officially support without any terrible obstacles
(what's the status of SQLlite support in OOo? is there any development on
the sqlite-odbc driver? I don't know, but these were the crucial problems
for me, why I haven't switched to bibus myself yet).
3) then we would begin refactoring his code (it's Python after all, so it
should be possible to find people who can do it) to support better
Metadata -- so far probably only in Bibus, until there will be better
support in C-code of OOo for it.
4) If the project will be successful and we will attract more users from
academia to use OOo for their scholarly work, we can use it as a leverage
against Sun to get some real support from them.

Basically, what I am suggesting is the same what Linus did when he was
refactoring Minix (to use current buzzword) to serve his goals, which is
how Linux was born.

Best,

Matej

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Re: Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy

Matthew Yates
In reply to this post by Matt Price-3
Wow, this series of e-mails is depressing.  I am a
professor at the University of Rochester and use
Openoffice daily, so along with Matt Price and Bruce
D'Arcus, there are at least a few people interested in
using Openoffice in academia.  I've been following
this issue for some time (I'm the one who suggested
the failed attempt to get funding from the NSF CCLI
program).  Bibliographic support is the ONLY reason I
do not use Openoffice exclusively and have my students
use it exclusively as well.  I otherwise love it.  But
right now I use Endnote on Linux using Codeweavers
Crossover office to add/remove citations to papers I
write.  I must then us MS Word to do the final
formatting of the bibiography before submitting for
publication.  

I was really hopeful a year or so ago that better
bibliographic support would be built in by now.  I am
disturbed that people seem to be giving up now, but I
am not sure what can be done to help.  If Sun
developers will not be able to work on this, could
they provide a reasonable estimate of coding man hours
needed based on the specs (and perhaps a cost
estimate)?  Could the community (me included) try to
raise funding that could be ear-marked for this
project?  If enough money could be set aside, then
perhaps the development could move forward.  As with
many people, I have little free time for this, but it
is an important issue for me and I would like to help
somehow.

-Matt

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Re: Re: Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy

Bruce D'Arcus
In reply to this post by Matej Cepl-2

On Jun 14, 2006, at 10:10 AM, Matej Cepl wrote:

> Concerning the future of whole OOo-bibliographic project -- isn't it
> the
> time to think about Plan B? I have still in the back of my bran, that
> there
> actually IS working bibliographic manager for OpenOffice.org; I mean,
> Bibus
> <http://bibus-biblio.sourceforge.net/>.

My opinion for quite awhile has been that Plan B needs to be exactly
what we are doing: starting by implementing the new ODF citation
support, hooking up citeproc to it, and exposing an API.* Without that,
we will make no progress. Or at least, that's my position; I'd rather
use Word.

At that point, it should be easy for Bibus a nice option.

Bruce

* basically what MS has done in fact!

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Re: Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy

Matt Price-3
In reply to this post by Matthew Yates
Quoting Matthew Yates <[hidden email]>:

> I was really hopeful a year or so ago that better
> bibliographic support would be built in by now.

As was I, and I should say that one of the reasons the current situation really
bums me out is that there are a number of python-based teaching projects I
*could* potentially manage on my own which I think would be really cool -- e.g.,
integrating OOo with a web-based bibliography & course wiki, thus allowing for
persistent content over multiple iterations of a course (so for instance my
course Science Technology and Modernity, which I have a high opinion of, could
be transformed into a significant web resource for a larger community by virtue
of the collective efforts of students).  I guess I could try them without OOo --
try something like Peter Sefton's very cool courseware -- but without it it'll
be much harder to get the teaching payoff I feel my students need.

So I certainly am disappointed.

Matt

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Re: Re: Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy

Matej Cepl-2
In reply to this post by Bruce D'Arcus
Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
> My opinion for quite awhile has been that Plan B needs to be exactly
> what we are doing: starting by implementing the new ODF citation
> support, hooking up citeproc to it, and exposing an API.* Without that,
> we will make no progress. Or at least, that's my position; I'd rather
> use Word.

That's nice, except that unless you will be done (who will implement new ODF
citation support in OOo?), you will have no useable bibliographic support
in OpenOffice.org, no users, and no push on Sun to do something about it. I
will rather stay with LyX.

Matej

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Re: Re: Re: Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy

Bruce D'Arcus

On Jun 14, 2006, at 6:07 PM, Matej Cepl wrote:

> That's nice, except that unless you will be done (who will implement
> new ODF
> citation support in OOo?), you will have no useable bibliographic
> support
> in OpenOffice.org, no users, and no push on Sun to do something about
> it.

Right; chicken-and-egg.

Clearly someone at Sun, and/or a non-Sun person with serious C++ skills
(like CPH) needs to do it.

However, "it" can mean different things. It could mean that Sun
developers, for example, improve the generic infrastructure
(particularly around fields) so that it is easier for outsiders to then
implement the specific code (in this case citations).  Indeed, there
has been private discussions about just this with people at Sun, going
back at least a year, if not two. No resolution though (and no news in
fact).

As it is, CPH started implementing the citation improvements without
that enhanced generic support, but got tied up with other (paid) work.
Such is life in open source land.

And then, of ocurse, we had a Google SOC application ready to implement
it, but nobody outside this project voted for it.

On the brighter side, as soon as we get that and the API implemented, I
think things will pick up significantly. But it seems that's sort of a
big initial hill to climb.

I'm sorry, but I feel strongly about this: there is no other reasonable
way. The low-level design is just wrong, and it has to be redone.

To understand what it might mean from a user perspective, go try out
the latest beta of Word 2007. Notwithstanding some of problems I've
noted on the blog, it has a level of integrated elegance that goes far
beyond what is possible with the current OOo code. Want to add a
bibliography? Just select your style from a pull-down list; it's
automatically added. Want to change the citation style? Just select
from another list and everything is reformatted in real-time.

It's not that this stuff is rocket science, and that MS is somehow
brilliant. They took the same approach we have been planning. It's just
that some executive or manager somewhere at MS just said "let's
prioritize higher ed in the next release" and people made it happen.

Bruce

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Re: Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy

David Wilson-7
In reply to this post by Matthew Yates
There is still a remaining positive point, or some light at the end of a long
tunnel, and that is that Sun developers have agreed that bibliographic
'improvements' should be in OOo version 3. No date is yet set for version 3
but I would guess that it is more than a 12 months away. As far as I can tell
The Sun developers are still flat out bug fixing version 2, and they have not
started a new round of enhancement planning.

I have put in two submissions to give talks at the OOo conference in Lyon,
France in Sept 2006 where I hope to promote the Bibliographic Project. I am
depended upon getting a subsidy  for the Australia-France airfare. We should
hear if this is accepted or not in the next few weeks.

Regarding private  funding, I have been somewhat  reluctant in the past, the
principle reason reason was that we probably needed several thousand  
dollars, and I was worried that if people sent in less that the amount
needed, I would be left holding not enough money and people pissed off
because nothing was happening.  

Perhaps we could set up scheme where people can make pledges for funding. And
the pledges would only be collected when we have a enough pledged for the
task ?  If the pledged amount was not delivered by a certain time it could be
refunded, or kept, depending on the donor's wishes. Anyway I am will to
discuss ways and means.  


regards


David







On Thursday 15 June 2006 3:04 am, Matthew Yates wrote:

> Wow, this series of e-mails is depressing.  I am a
> professor at the University of Rochester and use
> Openoffice daily, so along with Matt Price and Bruce
> D'Arcus, there are at least a few people interested in
> using Openoffice in academia.  I've been following
> this issue for some time (I'm the one who suggested
> the failed attempt to get funding from the NSF CCLI
> program).  Bibliographic support is the ONLY reason I
> do not use Openoffice exclusively and have my students
> use it exclusively as well.  I otherwise love it.  But
> right now I use Endnote on Linux using Codeweavers
> Crossover office to add/remove citations to papers I
> write.  I must then us MS Word to do the final
> formatting of the bibiography before submitting for
> publication.
>
> I was really hopeful a year or so ago that better
> bibliographic support would be built in by now.  I am
> disturbed that people seem to be giving up now, but I
> am not sure what can be done to help.  If Sun
> developers will not be able to work on this, could
> they provide a reasonable estimate of coding man hours
> needed based on the specs (and perhaps a cost
> estimate)?  Could the community (me included) try to
> raise funding that could be ear-marked for this
> project?  If enough money could be set aside, then
> perhaps the development could move forward.  As with
> many people, I have little free time for this, but it
> is an important issue for me and I would like to help
> somehow.
>
> -Matt
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

--
-------------------
David N. Wilson
Co-Project Lead for the Bibliographic
OpenOffice Project
http://bibliographic.openoffice.org

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Re: Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy

Mohammad Al-Ubaydli
Hi David,
I'm not sure if this is what you had in mind, but there is a website
that does this:

http://www.pledgebank.com/

I am willing to pledge $100 today. (I am actually willing to pay $100
today, if the fund it setup, but if you prefer the pledging then I am
happy to do that too.)

Thanks,
mohammad

Mohammad Al-Ubaydli, MD
e [hidden email]
w www.mo.md

On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 08:40:54 +1000, "David Wilson" <[hidden email]>
said:

> There is still a remaining positive point, or some light at the end of a
> long
> tunnel, and that is that Sun developers have agreed that bibliographic
> 'improvements' should be in OOo version 3. No date is yet set for version
> 3
> but I would guess that it is more than a 12 months away. As far as I can
> tell
> The Sun developers are still flat out bug fixing version 2, and they have
> not
> started a new round of enhancement planning.
>
> I have put in two submissions to give talks at the OOo conference in
> Lyon,
> France in Sept 2006 where I hope to promote the Bibliographic Project. I
> am
> depended upon getting a subsidy  for the Australia-France airfare. We
> should
> hear if this is accepted or not in the next few weeks.
>
> Regarding private  funding, I have been somewhat  reluctant in the past,
> the
> principle reason reason was that we probably needed several thousand  
> dollars, and I was worried that if people sent in less that the amount
> needed, I would be left holding not enough money and people pissed off
> because nothing was happening.  
>
> Perhaps we could set up scheme where people can make pledges for funding.
> And
> the pledges would only be collected when we have a enough pledged for the
> task ?  If the pledged amount was not delivered by a certain time it
> could be
> refunded, or kept, depending on the donor's wishes. Anyway I am will to
> discuss ways and means.  
>
>
> regards
>
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday 15 June 2006 3:04 am, Matthew Yates wrote:
> > Wow, this series of e-mails is depressing.  I am a
> > professor at the University of Rochester and use
> > Openoffice daily, so along with Matt Price and Bruce
> > D'Arcus, there are at least a few people interested in
> > using Openoffice in academia.  I've been following
> > this issue for some time (I'm the one who suggested
> > the failed attempt to get funding from the NSF CCLI
> > program).  Bibliographic support is the ONLY reason I
> > do not use Openoffice exclusively and have my students
> > use it exclusively as well.  I otherwise love it.  But
> > right now I use Endnote on Linux using Codeweavers
> > Crossover office to add/remove citations to papers I
> > write.  I must then us MS Word to do the final
> > formatting of the bibiography before submitting for
> > publication.
> >
> > I was really hopeful a year or so ago that better
> > bibliographic support would be built in by now.  I am
> > disturbed that people seem to be giving up now, but I
> > am not sure what can be done to help.  If Sun
> > developers will not be able to work on this, could
> > they provide a reasonable estimate of coding man hours
> > needed based on the specs (and perhaps a cost
> > estimate)?  Could the community (me included) try to
> > raise funding that could be ear-marked for this
> > project?  If enough money could be set aside, then
> > perhaps the development could move forward.  As with
> > many people, I have little free time for this, but it
> > is an important issue for me and I would like to help
> > somehow.
> >
> > -Matt
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
> --
> -------------------
> David N. Wilson
> Co-Project Lead for the Bibliographic
> OpenOffice Project
> http://bibliographic.openoffice.org
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
>

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Re: Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy

Matthew Yates
In reply to this post by David Wilson-7
David,

I like the pledge idea.  Codeweavers set up something
similar where users can pledge money for a "favorite"
windows application.  The Codeweavers developers can
then prioritize development to get new applications
functioning based on the pledges for it.  When they
get it working, they collect the pledges for it.

The only problem is that people can be fickle and
financial situations of people change over time so
there is no certainty that all pledges will be
collected.  It Codeweavers case, for any pledge less
than $500, they take your word for it.  Over $500,
they make you put money in escrow at www.escrow.com.

Even with the collection uncertainty, the pledge idea
is a good one and is probably better than direct
contributions.  

I don't suppose Sun would share customer e-mail
addresses in academia?  It would be nice to contact
users at universities to try and drum up pledges.

-Matt


--- David Wilson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There is still a remaining positive point, or some
> light at the end of a long
> tunnel, and that is that Sun developers have agreed
> that bibliographic
> 'improvements' should be in OOo version 3. No date
> is yet set for version 3
> but I would guess that it is more than a 12 months
> away. As far as I can tell
> The Sun developers are still flat out bug fixing
> version 2, and they have not
> started a new round of enhancement planning.
>
> I have put in two submissions to give talks at the
> OOo conference in Lyon,
> France in Sept 2006 where I hope to promote the
> Bibliographic Project. I am
> depended upon getting a subsidy  for the
> Australia-France airfare. We should
> hear if this is accepted or not in the next few
> weeks.
>
> Regarding private  funding, I have been somewhat
> reluctant in the past, the
> principle reason reason was that we probably needed
> several thousand  
> dollars, and I was worried that if people sent in
> less that the amount
> needed, I would be left holding not enough money and
> people pissed off
> because nothing was happening.  
>
> Perhaps we could set up scheme where people can make
> pledges for funding. And
> the pledges would only be collected when we have a
> enough pledged for the
> task ?  If the pledged amount was not delivered by a
> certain time it could be
> refunded, or kept, depending on the donor's wishes.
> Anyway I am will to
> discuss ways and means.  
>
>
> regards
>
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday 15 June 2006 3:04 am, Matthew Yates
> wrote:
> > Wow, this series of e-mails is depressing.  I am a
> > professor at the University of Rochester and use
> > Openoffice daily, so along with Matt Price and
> Bruce
> > D'Arcus, there are at least a few people
> interested in
> > using Openoffice in academia.  I've been following
> > this issue for some time (I'm the one who
> suggested
> > the failed attempt to get funding from the NSF
> CCLI
> > program).  Bibliographic support is the ONLY
> reason I
> > do not use Openoffice exclusively and have my
> students
> > use it exclusively as well.  I otherwise love it.
> But
> > right now I use Endnote on Linux using Codeweavers
> > Crossover office to add/remove citations to papers
> I
> > write.  I must then us MS Word to do the final
> > formatting of the bibiography before submitting
> for
> > publication.
> >
> > I was really hopeful a year or so ago that better
> > bibliographic support would be built in by now.  I
> am
> > disturbed that people seem to be giving up now,
> but I
> > am not sure what can be done to help.  If Sun
> > developers will not be able to work on this, could
> > they provide a reasonable estimate of coding man
> hours
> > needed based on the specs (and perhaps a cost
> > estimate)?  Could the community (me included) try
> to
> > raise funding that could be ear-marked for this
> > project?  If enough money could be set aside, then
> > perhaps the development could move forward.  As
> with
> > many people, I have little free time for this, but
> it
> > is an important issue for me and I would like to
> help
> > somehow.
> >
> > -Matt
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
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> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> [hidden email]
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> [hidden email]
>
> --
> -------------------
> David N. Wilson
> Co-Project Lead for the Bibliographic
> OpenOffice Project
> http://bibliographic.openoffice.org
>
>
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> [hidden email]
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>
>


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Re: Re: Re: Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy

Matej Cepl-2
In reply to this post by Bruce D'Arcus
Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
> To understand what it might mean from a user perspective, go try out
> the latest beta of Word 2007.

Ehm, no Windows around ;-)

> It's not that this stuff is rocket science, and that MS is somehow
> brilliant. They took the same approach we have been planning. It's just
> that some executive or manager somewhere at MS just said "let's
> prioritize higher ed in the next release" and people made it happen.

You're probably right, let's see what will happen.

Matej

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Re: Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy

David Wilson-7
In reply to this post by Matthew Yates
On Thursday 15 June 2006 10:34 am, Matthew Yates wrote:

> David,
>
> I like the pledge idea.  Codeweavers set up something
> similar where users can pledge money for a "favorite"
> windows application.  The Codeweavers developers can
> then prioritize development to get new applications
> functioning based on the pledges for it.  When they
> get it working, they collect the pledges for it.
>
> The only problem is that people can be fickle and
> financial situations of people change over time so
> there is no certainty that all pledges will be
> collected.  It Codeweavers case, for any pledge less
> than $500, they take your word for it.  Over $500,
> they make you put money in escrow at www.escrow.com.
>
Thanks for the suggestion . I had a look but I could not find any description
of this could you find a reference for me ?
> Even with the collection uncertainty, the pledge idea
> is a good one and is probably better than direct
> contributions.
>
> I don't suppose Sun would share customer e-mail
> addresses in academia?  It would be nice to contact
> users at universities to try and drum up pledges.
It would be good if they did. But I do not imagine they would. We may have
find another approach.

>
> -Matt
>
> --- David Wilson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > There is still a remaining positive point, or some
> > light at the end of a long
> > tunnel, and that is that Sun developers have agreed
> > that bibliographic
> > 'improvements' should be in OOo version 3. No date
> > is yet set for version 3
> > but I would guess that it is more than a 12 months
> > away. As far as I can tell
> > The Sun developers are still flat out bug fixing
> > version 2, and they have not
> > started a new round of enhancement planning.
> >
> > I have put in two submissions to give talks at the
> > OOo conference in Lyon,
> > France in Sept 2006 where I hope to promote the
> > Bibliographic Project. I am
> > depended upon getting a subsidy  for the
> > Australia-France airfare. We should
> > hear if this is accepted or not in the next few
> > weeks.
> >
> > Regarding private  funding, I have been somewhat
> > reluctant in the past, the
> > principle reason reason was that we probably needed
> > several thousand
> > dollars, and I was worried that if people sent in
> > less that the amount
> > needed, I would be left holding not enough money and
> > people pissed off
> > because nothing was happening.
> >
> > Perhaps we could set up scheme where people can make
> > pledges for funding. And
> > the pledges would only be collected when we have a
> > enough pledged for the
> > task ?  If the pledged amount was not delivered by a
> > certain time it could be
> > refunded, or kept, depending on the donor's wishes.
> > Anyway I am will to
> > discuss ways and means.
> >
> >
> > regards
> >
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thursday 15 June 2006 3:04 am, Matthew Yates
> >
> > wrote:
> > > Wow, this series of e-mails is depressing.  I am a
> > > professor at the University of Rochester and use
> > > Openoffice daily, so along with Matt Price and
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> > > D'Arcus, there are at least a few people
> >
> > interested in
> >
> > > using Openoffice in academia.  I've been following
> > > this issue for some time (I'm the one who
> >
> > suggested
> >
> > > the failed attempt to get funding from the NSF
> >
> > CCLI
> >
> > > program).  Bibliographic support is the ONLY
> >
> > reason I
> >
> > > do not use Openoffice exclusively and have my
> >
> > students
> >
> > > use it exclusively as well.  I otherwise love it.
> >
> > But
> >
> > > right now I use Endnote on Linux using Codeweavers
> > > Crossover office to add/remove citations to papers
> >
> > I
> >
> > > write.  I must then us MS Word to do the final
> > > formatting of the bibiography before submitting
> >
> > for
> >
> > > publication.
> > >
> > > I was really hopeful a year or so ago that better
> > > bibliographic support would be built in by now.  I
> >
> > am
> >
> > > disturbed that people seem to be giving up now,
> >
> > but I
> >
> > > am not sure what can be done to help.  If Sun
> > > developers will not be able to work on this, could
> > > they provide a reasonable estimate of coding man
> >
> > hours
> >
> > > needed based on the specs (and perhaps a cost
> > > estimate)?  Could the community (me included) try
> >
> > to
> >
> > > raise funding that could be ear-marked for this
> > > project?  If enough money could be set aside, then
> > > perhaps the development could move forward.  As
> >
> > with
> >
> > > many people, I have little free time for this, but
> >
> > it
> >
> > > is an important issue for me and I would like to
> >
> > help
> >
> > > somehow.
> > >
> > > -Matt
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> >
> > protection around
> >
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> >
> > [hidden email]
> >
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> >
> > [hidden email]
> >
> > --
> > -------------------
> > David N. Wilson
> > Co-Project Lead for the Bibliographic
> > OpenOffice Project
> > http://bibliographic.openoffice.org
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > [hidden email]
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > [hidden email]
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
-------------------
David N. Wilson
Co-Project Lead for the Bibliographic
OpenOffice Project
http://bibliographic.openoffice.org

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Re: Bibliographic Issues should be added to the marketing strategy

Matthew Yates
--- David Wilson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the suggestion . I had a look but I could
> not find any description
> of this could you find a reference for me ?

Here is an example with details of pledges:

http://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/browse/name?app_id=186;pledge=1


Access 97 currently has the most pledges.

-Matt

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