Dictionaries in lang packages?

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Dictionaries in lang packages?

Hristo Hristov-5
Hi,
A lot of people complain that when they install new version of OOo they have
to install our dictionaries again. Is it possible to be done something? For
example in language packages (isntall) to add respective dictionary for that
language.

regards
--
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Leader of OpenOffice.org - Bulgarian
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Re: Dictionaries in lang packages?

Simon Brouwer
Hi Hristo,

Hristo Simenov Hristov schreef:
> Hi,
> A lot of people complain that when they install new version of OOo they
> have
> to install our dictionaries again. Is it possible to be done something?
> For
> example in language packages (isntall) to add respective dictionary for
> that
> language.

The problem with many available dictionaries is that their license is not
compatible with OOo, e.g. GPL. That means you can use them with OOo, by
separately downloading them, but they cannot be made a part of it.

However, I think some kind of solution may be possible.

You may have noticed that, if you upgrade from (for example) 2.2.1 to
2.3.0, the software is installed in a new directory such as
".../OpenOffice.org 2.3" and the files in ".../OpenOffice.org 2.1" are
removed to reclaim the hard disk space. However, files in the latter
directory that were changed or added after installation are *not* removed.
I think this includes the dictionaries that were separately downloaded.

A feature could be added to the OOo installer that detects the existence
of  those dictionaries, and optionally migrates them to the new
installation directory. That way, you don't have to download the same
dictionaries every time you install a new version of OOo.


--
Vriendelijke groet,

Simon Brouwer
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Re: Dictionaries in lang packages?

Marcin Miłkowski
Simon Brouwer pisze:

> Hi Hristo,
>
> Hristo Simenov Hristov schreef:
>> Hi,
>> A lot of people complain that when they install new version of OOo they
>> have
>> to install our dictionaries again. Is it possible to be done something?
>> For
>> example in language packages (isntall) to add respective dictionary for
>> that
>> language.
>
> The problem with many available dictionaries is that their license is not
> compatible with OOo, e.g. GPL. That means you can use them with OOo, by
> separately downloading them, but they cannot be made a part of it.

This isn't true. It's very hard to make a dictionary part of OOo even
though it's LGPL. For example, if the language is not covered by the
Sun-contributed builds, it never becomes the part of the installation
pack or language pack.

Now, according to QA, this is a bug (this is one of the tests we have to
mark as failed in TCM). According to what we hear here, it's a feature.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm going with QA with the definition of what a
bug is, so we should fix it.

The first step would be to ask the NL teams to review dictionaries for
their language and submit license info on the wiki (this could help
distributors as well). Another would be to ask them to specify the
bug-tracking process for the dictionaries.

Otherwise, the only solution is to develop the extension framework that
could install dicts.

Regards,
Marcin

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Re: Dictionaries in lang packages?

Simon Brouwer
Hi Marcin,

Marcin Miłkowski schreef:

> Simon Brouwer pisze:
>> Hi Hristo,
>>
>> Hristo Simenov Hristov schreef:
>>> Hi,
>>> A lot of people complain that when they install new version of OOo they
>>> have
>>> to install our dictionaries again. Is it possible to be done something?
>>> For
>>> example in language packages (isntall) to add respective dictionary for
>>> that
>>> language.
>>
>> The problem with many available dictionaries is that their license is
>> not
>> compatible with OOo, e.g. GPL. That means you can use them with OOo, by
>> separately downloading them, but they cannot be made a part of it.
>
> This isn't true. It's very hard to make a dictionary part of OOo even
> though it's LGPL.

That is something else. What I said was that it is a problem when the
license is not compatible, which is the case for many available
dictionaries.

I did *not* say that it's not a problem to include a dictionary if its
license is compatible.

If most dictionaries would be LGPL or otherwise compatibly licensed, it
would still be undesirable to bundle them all. That would significantly
bloat the install package, while most users would never write documents in
the majority of those languages.

It might be a good idea to selectively bundle them in the corresponding
localized versions, though. I.e. to have the Polish spell checker files
installed with the Polish OOo (but not with all other localizations).

--
Vriendelijke groet,

Simon Brouwer
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Re: Dictionaries in lang packages?

Marcin Miłkowski
Simon Brouwer pisze:
> I did *not* say that it's not a problem to include a dictionary if its
> license is compatible.
>
> If most dictionaries would be LGPL or otherwise compatibly licensed, it
> would still be undesirable to bundle them all. That would significantly
> bloat the install package, while most users would never write documents in
> the majority of those languages.

The question was about bundling dictionary for a single language in a
localization pack. What I'm saying is that LGPL is not enough right now,
but it should be enough.

I'm not saying I want Zulu dictionary in Polish localization pack, or
Polish dictionary in Zulu localization pack.

Regards,
Marcin

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Re: Dictionaries in lang packages?

Simon Brouwer

Marcin Miłkowski schreef:

> Simon Brouwer pisze:
>> I did *not* say that it's not a problem to include a dictionary if its
>> license is compatible.
>>
>> If most dictionaries would be LGPL or otherwise compatibly licensed, it
>> would still be undesirable to bundle them all. That would significantly
>> bloat the install package, while most users would never write documents
>> in
>> the majority of those languages.
>
> The question was about bundling dictionary for a single language in a
> localization pack. What I'm saying is that LGPL is not enough right now,
> but it should be enough.
>
> I'm not saying I want Zulu dictionary in Polish localization pack, or
> Polish dictionary in Zulu localization pack.

I have the impression that we agree :)


--
Vriendelijke groet,

Simon Brouwer
-*- nl.openoffice.org -*- http://www.opentaal.org -*-

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Hunspell in otehr apps then OOo

Ruud Baars-2
L.S.

Is one of the specialists out here able to point out a location where I
can find information on integrating Hunspell in C or java applications?

Thanks for helping out.

Ruud Baars



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Re: Dictionaries in lang packages?

Marcin Miłkowski
In reply to this post by Simon Brouwer
Simon Brouwer pisze:

> Marcin Miłkowski schreef:
>> Simon Brouwer pisze:
>>> I did *not* say that it's not a problem to include a dictionary if its
>>> license is compatible.
>>>
>>> If most dictionaries would be LGPL or otherwise compatibly licensed, it
>>> would still be undesirable to bundle them all. That would significantly
>>> bloat the install package, while most users would never write documents
>>> in
>>> the majority of those languages.
>> The question was about bundling dictionary for a single language in a
>> localization pack. What I'm saying is that LGPL is not enough right now,
>> but it should be enough.
>>
>> I'm not saying I want Zulu dictionary in Polish localization pack, or
>> Polish dictionary in Zulu localization pack.
>
> I have the impression that we agree :)

Exactly :)

Anyway, the idea of adding dictionary packs to localization packs seems
very good to me. Could we do something to make it real?

Best,
Marcin

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Re: Hunspell in otehr apps then OOo

Marcin Miłkowski
In reply to this post by Ruud Baars-2
Hi Ruud,

r.j.baars pisze:
> L.S.
>
> Is one of the specialists out here able to point out a location where I
> can find information on integrating Hunspell in C or java applications?

Use our mailing list archive to find my posts on Java ports of
Hunspell/myspell. There are at least three of them. And none of them is
perfect.

Best,
Marcin

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Re: Dictionaries in lang packages?

Hristo Hristov-5
In reply to this post by Simon Brouwer
On 4.10.2007, Simon Brouwer wrote:
> The problem with many available dictionaries is that their license is not
> compatible with OOo, e.g. GPL. That means you can use them with OOo, by
> separately downloading them, but they cannot be made a part of it.
>

Well,
when I install standard English install pack of OOo I have these dictionaries:
HYPH pl PL hyph_pl_PL - missing
THES pl PL th_pl_PL_v2 - no readme file for the license
HYPH de DE hyph_de_DE - GNU GPL, Version 2
DICT de DE de_DE - GNU GPL, Version 2
THES de DE th_de_DE_v2 - GNU GPL, Version 2
HYPH ru RU hyph_ru_RU - no readme file for the license

Dictionaries which are not included in dictionary.lst but installed:
af_ZA.dic - LGPL
de_AT.dic - GPL v2
de_CH.dic - GPL v2
en_US.dic - no readme
hu_HU.dic - LGPL
it_IT.dic - GPL & LGPL
lt_LT.dic - I suggest that the license is like for it_IT
sv_SE.dic - LGPL
sw_TZ.dic - LGPL
hyph_af_ZA.dic - LGPL
hyph_da_DK.dic - no readme
hyph_en_US.dic - no readme
hyph_hu_HU.dic - LGPL
hyph_it_IT.dic - GPL & LGPL
hyph_lt_LT.dic - I suggest that the license is like for it_IT
th_cs_CZ_v2 - no readme
th_de_CH_v2 - LGPL v2.1
th_en_US - no readme

So, here is some questions:
1. Why I have to have Italian dictionaries when I install English version of
OOo, or any other no English dictionary?
2. If I'm not wrong some of German dictionaries are under GPL v2
3. There are dictionaries without readme file to know what is the license
 
best regards
--
Hristo Simeonov Hristov
Leader of OpenOffice.org - Bulgarian
GnuPG key 0xD0D895EB: 0282 D8D0 90D3 963F E57E B0A7 2670 88D9 D0D8 95EB

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Re: Dictionaries in lang packages?

Marcin Miłkowski
Hristo Hristov pisze:
> On 4.10.2007, Simon Brouwer wrote:
>> The problem with many available dictionaries is that their license is not
>> compatible with OOo, e.g. GPL. That means you can use them with OOo, by
>> separately downloading them, but they cannot be made a part of it.
>>
>
> Well,
> when I install standard English install pack of OOo I have these dictionaries:
> HYPH pl PL hyph_pl_PL - missing

the dict is missing or the readme?

> THES pl PL th_pl_PL_v2 - no readme file for the license

It's LGPL (I'm the maintainer)

Interestingly enough, the readme is installed, I believe, with the
Polish OOo version... And it's there in StarOffice.

> So, here is some questions:
> 1. Why I have to have Italian dictionaries when I install English version of
> OOo, or any other no English dictionary?

No idea. Makes little sense to me.

> 3. There are dictionaries without readme file to know what is the license

We should really try to make the review, using NL teams for that. I can
easily add this info to the wiki. Should I go on and as on l10n?

Best,
Marcin

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Re: Dictionaries in lang packages?

Hristo Hristov-5
On 6.10.2007, Marcin Miłkowski wrote:
> > Well,
> > when I install standard English install pack of OOo I have these
> > dictionaries: HYPH pl PL hyph_pl_PL - missing
>
> the dict is missing or the readme?

Readme file missing. My mistake.

--
Hristo Simeonov Hristov
Leader of OpenOffice.org - Bulgarian
GnuPG key 0xD0D895EB: 0282 D8D0 90D3 963F E57E B0A7 2670 88D9 D0D8 95EB

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Re: Dictionaries in lang packages?

Mathias Bauer
In reply to this post by Marcin Miłkowski
Marcin Miłkowski wrote:

> Otherwise, the only solution is to develop the extension framework that
> could install dicts.

This is what we are doing (complemented by several other things like
thinking about system wide installation of dicts and native packages as
discussed in another thread).

Currently there is a special bug in the OOo linguistic that will lose
disctionaries on update even if the update is installed into the same
folder as the old version. This issue will be fixed in OOo3.0, not
earlier, as it can be fixed only by enabling the linguistic to look for
dictionaries in arbitrary pathes and getting rid of the dictionary.lst
file by replacing it by configuration settings.

Ciao,
Mathias

--
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OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS
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Re: Dictionaries in lang packages?

Mathias Bauer
In reply to this post by Hristo Hristov-5
Hristo Simenov Hristov wrote:

> Hi,
> A lot of people complain that when they install new version of OOo they have
> to install our dictionaries again. Is it possible to be done something? For
> example in language packages (isntall) to add respective dictionary for that
> language.

Dictionaries and language packs shouldn't be mixed. Why should one need
to install the UI localization package for language "X" just because one
wants to write (and spell check) documents in that language?

I think the end user problem can be solved to make it easier and more
obvious for them to get the necessary packages.

Ciao,
Mathias

--
Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer
OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS
Please don't reply to "[hidden email]".
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Re: Dictionaries in lang packages?

Hristo Hristov-5
On 8.10.2007, Mathias Bauer wrote:

> Hristo Simenov Hristov wrote:
> > Hi,
> > A lot of people complain that when they install new version of OOo they
> > have to install our dictionaries again. Is it possible to be done
> > something? For example in language packages (isntall) to add respective
> > dictionary for that language.
>
> Dictionaries and language packs shouldn't be mixed. Why should one need
> to install the UI localization package for language "X" just because one
> wants to write (and spell check) documents in that language?
>
> I think the end user problem can be solved to make it easier and more
> obvious for them to get the necessary packages.
>
Well, why I will install OOo Spanish for example and not to write in Spanish?
There is a wizard for installing dictionaries, but when I install some
language pack I think most of users will write on same language.

I just wrote the most complain in Bulgaria. That when they install OOo with
Bulgarian interface (lang pack or main install) there are no Bulgarian
dictionaries.

--
Hristo Simeonov Hristov
Leader of OpenOffice.org - Bulgarian
GnuPG key 0xD0D895EB: 0282 D8D0 90D3 963F E57E B0A7 2670 88D9 D0D8 95EB

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Re: Dictionaries in lang packages?

Marcin Miłkowski
Hristo Hristov pisze:

> On 8.10.2007, Mathias Bauer wrote:
>> Hristo Simenov Hristov wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> A lot of people complain that when they install new version of OOo they
>>> have to install our dictionaries again. Is it possible to be done
>>> something? For example in language packages (isntall) to add respective
>>> dictionary for that language.
>> Dictionaries and language packs shouldn't be mixed. Why should one need
>> to install the UI localization package for language "X" just because one
>> wants to write (and spell check) documents in that language?
>>
>> I think the end user problem can be solved to make it easier and more
>> obvious for them to get the necessary packages.
>>
> Well, why I will install OOo Spanish for example and not to write in Spanish?
> There is a wizard for installing dictionaries, but when I install some
> language pack I think most of users will write on same language.
>
> I just wrote the most complain in Bulgaria. That when they install OOo with
> Bulgarian interface (lang pack or main install) there are no Bulgarian
> dictionaries.

+1

Though UI and spelling dictionaries are separate issues, it's normal
that you download language pack for the language that you speak and
write. So you're going to need the dictionaries anyway. Otherwise, it
seems a little schizophrenic: Why should I need a German pack if I want
to write in Bulgarian, for example?

Regards,
Marcin


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Re: Dictionaries in lang packages?

Mathias Bauer
In reply to this post by Hristo Hristov-5
Hristo Hristov wrote:

> On 8.10.2007, Mathias Bauer wrote:
>> Hristo Simenov Hristov wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> > A lot of people complain that when they install new version of OOo they
>> > have to install our dictionaries again. Is it possible to be done
>> > something? For example in language packages (isntall) to add respective
>> > dictionary for that language.
>>
>> Dictionaries and language packs shouldn't be mixed. Why should one need
>> to install the UI localization package for language "X" just because one
>> wants to write (and spell check) documents in that language?
>>
>> I think the end user problem can be solved to make it easier and more
>> obvious for them to get the necessary packages.
>>
> Well, why I will install OOo Spanish for example and not to write in Spanish?
> There is a wizard for installing dictionaries, but when I install some
> language pack I think most of users will write on same language.
>
> I just wrote the most complain in Bulgaria. That when they install OOo with
> Bulgarian interface (lang pack or main install) there are no Bulgarian
> dictionaries.

OK, maybe I should put it the other way around:

Dictionaries should be individual packages, separated from the GUI
packages for localization. A language pack of course should contain at
least one dictionary package. But it should be possible to install the
dictionary without the GUI package.

Is that OK?

Ciao,
Mathias

--
Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer
OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS
Please don't reply to "[hidden email]".
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Re: Dictionaries in lang packages?

Hristo Hristov-5
On 9.10.2007, Mathias Bauer wrote:
> OK, maybe I should put it the other way around:
>
> Dictionaries should be individual packages, separated from the GUI
> packages for localization. A language pack of course should contain at
> least one dictionary package. But it should be possible to install the
> dictionary without the GUI package.
>
> Is that OK?

Dictionaries always can be installed by Dictionary Wizard. I point some
problems and can we solve them.
One of the problems is that with English install of OOo comes not only en_XX
dictionaries but others as well. Also I saw that de_XX dictionaries are under
GPL. Is this license compatible so these dictionaries to be bundled with the
install?
The other point is that people expect when they get language pack for OOo or
main install in their language to get dictionaries for that language as well.
So my question was is it possible to bundle dictionaries with language packs.
It can be made some checkbox, checked by default, and the user, if he wants,
to uncheck it and not to install the dictionaries with the language. I
propose also in main language installs to come with equivalent dictionaries
for that language. Main English install - en_XX dictionaries. German
install - de_XX dictionaries and etc.

regards
--
Hristo Simeonov Hristov
Leader of OpenOffice.org - Bulgarian
GnuPG key 0xD0D895EB: 0282 D8D0 90D3 963F E57E B0A7 2670 88D9 D0D8 95EB

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Re: Dictionaries in lang packages?

Daniel Naber-9
On Tuesday 09 October 2007 20:05, Hristo Hristov wrote:

> Also I saw that de_XX dictionaries are under
> GPL. Is this license compatible so these dictionaries to be bundled with
> the install?

They are additionally under a license that allows them to be distributed
with a software that uses the Open Document format.

regards
 Daniel

--
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Re: Dictionaries in lang packages?

Hristo Hristov-5
On 9.10.2007, Daniel Naber wrote:
> On Tuesday 09 October 2007 20:05, Hristo Hristov wrote:
> > Also I saw that de_XX dictionaries are under
> > GPL. Is this license compatible so these dictionaries to be bundled with
> > the install?
>
> They are additionally under a license that allows them to be distributed
> with a software that uses the Open Document format.
>
Please tell me more information about that. Our dictionaries are also under
GPL and I want to know what I have to do to be compatible for distribution
with OOo.

regards
--
Hristo Simeonov Hristov
Leader of OpenOffice.org - Bulgarian
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