Footnotes and with intext citations.

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Footnotes and with intext citations.

David Wilson-7
I have been thinking about the options needed for the Insert/ Edit Citation
panel.  

Yet another history complexity.

This one is from my thesis. Whilst the thesis citation style is Chicago
footnotes, the thesis is principally an examination of two texts and I
followed the convention of listing the Abbreviations at the start of the
document , ie.
-------------
Táin LL Táin Bó Cúalnge from the Book of Leinster. Translated and edited by
Cecile O’Rahilly. Dublin: Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1970.
 
Táin I Táin Bó Cúalnge Recension 1. Translated and edited by Cecile O’Rahilly.
Dublin: Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies, 1976.
-------------
And then using intext citations to these two main texts ie.

---------------
After Fergus had left, Etarcumul taunted Cú Chulainn:

I think you are fine indeed. You are a comely, splendid, handsome youth with
brilliant, numerous, various feats of arms. But as for reckoning you among
goodly heroes or warriors or champions or sledge-hammers of smiting, we do
not do so nor count you at all. (Táin LL 183)
--------------
All other citations are footnote citation. This practise is is followed
because otherwise the text would have a couple of hundred very short
footnotes of the type - "Táin LL 183"

So the the upshot of this - Maybe we do need a intext/ footnote selector on
the  Insert/ Edit Citation panel, even though the document style will select
which is the default position.  The option may be grayed out if the document
style really prohibits such mixing. As far as I can tell neither Endnote or
Ibidem has this ability.

BTW the 'Táin LL' and the 'Táin 1' strings could be selected in the Ibidem  
panel using Short title (or a custom short title)  and the Exclude Author
name option.

Maybe we are a position were we could come up with a (almost) definitive list
of the option the Insert / Edit Citation panel needs to support ?


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David N. Wilson
Co-Project Lead for the Bibliographic
OpenOffice Project
http://bibliographic.openoffice.org

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Re: Footnotes and with intext citations.

Bruce D'Arcus

On Jul 10, 2006, at 7:33 PM, David Wilson wrote:

> All other citations are footnote citation. This practise is is followed
> because otherwise the text would have a couple of hundred very short
> footnotes of the type - "Táin LL 183"

But does that really matter, or is this more a convenience for authors
who don't have good citation software, like the dreaded "op. cit."?

Bruce
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Re: Footnotes and with intext citations.

David Wilson-7
I have looked up my style manual - 'The Chicago Manual of Style; 15th edition"

===================
Section 16:39 Abbreviations.
A frequently mentioned work may be cited either parenthetically in the text or
in subsequent notes by means of an abbreviation, with full citation provided
in a note at first mention. ....

[Footnote]
2. Francios Furet, The Passing of an Illusion: The Idea of Communism in the
Twentieth Century, trans. Deborah Furet (Chicago: University of Chicago
press, 1999), 368 (hereafter cited in text as PI)

(Subsequent text references:) "In this sense, the Second World War completed
what the First had begun-the domination of the great political religions over
European public opinion." Furet points out (PI, 360). But he goes on to
argue ...

An abbreviation differs from a short title (see 16.45) in that words may be
abbreviated and the word order changed.

....

[It goes on to give an example where the reference to the 'Records of the
Governor and Company of the Massachusetts Bay in New England' are abbreviated
'Mass. Records'. ]
===================
The note on Short title (16:45) says in part

The short title contains the key word or words form the main title. An initial
'A' or 'The' is omitted. The order of the words should not be changed. .....
The short title is italicized or set in Roman according to the way the full
title appears.
====================

So it is a real option with the style. Not just a printer of software issue.

David

On Tuesday 11 July 2006 9:56 am, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:

> On Jul 10, 2006, at 7:33 PM, David Wilson wrote:
> > All other citations are footnote citation. This practise is is followed
> > because otherwise the text would have a couple of hundred very short
> > footnotes of the type - "Táin LL 183"
>
> But does that really matter, or is this more a convenience for authors
> who don't have good citation software, like the dreaded "op. cit."?
>
> Bruce
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http://bibliographic.openoffice.org

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Re: Footnotes and with intext citations.

Bruce D'Arcus

On Jul 10, 2006, at 9:32 PM, David Wilson wrote:

> I have looked up my style manual - 'The Chicago Manual of Style; 15th
> edition"

Ugh (sound of sinking in the stomach).

OK, fair enough. I did just come across this reading through the
documentation for the new op cit. BibTeX package.

The only way I can imagine to implement this -- and how it is done in
op cite -- is to allow a user to include a "hereafter" tag on the first
citation, and then to have a flag in CSL to have subsequent citations
use that (e.g. you have a choice of one or the other).

The problem is:

1) the current citation support planned for 1.2 has no support for this
coding
2) MS's new citation support has no support for it (as near as I can
tell, and assuming we care about interoperability)

It also means the citation GUI becomes more complex (every feature of
this sort needs to a new GUI option).

So how important is this feature, recognizing that we already account
for automatically-footnoted citations, and ibid, as well as
first/subsequent forms? Would you not have been able to do your thesis
without it?

Bruce

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Re: Footnotes and with intext citations.

David Wilson-8
On Tuesday 11 July 2006 12:12 pm, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:

> On Jul 10, 2006, at 9:32 PM, David Wilson wrote:
> > I have looked up my style manual - 'The Chicago Manual of Style; 15th
> > edition"
>
> Ugh (sound of sinking in the stomach).
>
> OK, fair enough. I did just come across this reading through the
> documentation for the new op cit. BibTeX package.
>
> The only way I can imagine to implement this -- and how it is done in
> op cite -- is to allow a user to include a "hereafter" tag on the first
> citation, and then to have a flag in CSL to have subsequent citations
> use that (e.g. you have a choice of one or the other).
If we can we should avoid having to pass flags back to

>
> The problem is:
>
> 1) the current citation support planned for 1.2 has no support for this
> coding
> 2) MS's new citation support has no support for it (as near as I can
> tell, and assuming we care about interoperability)
>
> It also means the citation GUI becomes more complex (every feature of
> this sort needs to a new GUI option).
Would this work? The Add/Edit citation has  text input box with these options-

"Custom Short title / Abbreviation (for this citation)"  
"Custom Short title / Abbreviation (use for all subsequent citations)"

(The first option is available in Ibidem. See
http://bibliographic.openoffice.org/screenImages/IbidemDescription_html_m729d184e.gif  )

No need to bother CiteProc, it just replaces CiteProc's version of the cite
string with the one the user added in custom the cote text box for the
subsequent citations. The processing of this would be in Writer.

Yes it adds an other GUI function, we could put it in an 'Advanced' panel tab
so the standard options are not cluttered. Also if the method I propose could
work it could be added on at any time ... later.

Perhaps there should be book Abbreviation data element as there is for
Journals. If the user added a Book Abbreviation for a reference, maybe
CiteProc could return that instead of the Short title. That way the user
could decide on the default action?

Another option -
CiteProc returns the Book Abbreviation which is stored in the database and
with the reference data as a separate text string along with my suggested
list-

* In-text citation
* Footnote initial citation
* Footnote subsequent citation
* Endnote initial citation
* Endnote subsequent citation
* Ibid or 'op cite'  text
* Book Abbreviation (new)

Then the user has the option buttons -

"Use Abbreviation instead of Short Title for all subsequent citations y/n"
"insert intext or footnote"

David
>
> So how important is this feature, recognizing that we already account
> for automatically-footnoted citations, and ibid, as well as
> first/subsequent forms? Would you not have been able to do your thesis
> without it?
>
Yes, I but I might have got a negative comment. But would the examiners have
marked be down a point or two - I don't know.

The use of abbreviations is very common in the humanities when you are
constantly referring to a few works, say a book of Shakespeare's plays.
Lots of footnotes but also lots of-

Our indiscretions sometimes serve us well
When our deep plots to pall;    (Hamlet, iv, viii)

Also, I was told that if I used major authorities frequently I must use the
standard abbreviations. So we do need a way of using them.

Just a two examples of what I mean from a book I have -
====================
Abbreviations

AASS Acta Sanctorum, Paris and Brussels, 1643-.
ACOec Acta Conciliorum Oemenicorum, Lipzig and Berlin. 1941-.

===================
These are used in text italicised without parentheses


David

> Bruce
>
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Re: Footnotes and with intext citations.

Bruce D'Arcus
On 7/10/06, David Wilson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Would this work? The Add/Edit citation has  text input box with these options-
>
> "Custom Short title / Abbreviation (for this citation)"
> "Custom Short title / Abbreviation (use for all subsequent citations)"
>
> (The first option is available in Ibidem. See
> http://bibliographic.openoffice.org/screenImages/IbidemDescription_html_m729d184e.gif  )
>
> No need to bother CiteProc, it just replaces CiteProc's version of the cite
> string with the one the user added in custom the cote text box for the
> subsequent citations. The processing of this would be in Writer.

That's not the problem; the problem is there's no place to store that
information.

> Yes it adds an other GUI function, we could put it in an 'Advanced' panel tab
> so the standard options are not cluttered. Also if the method I propose could
> work it could be added on at any time ... later.

OK.

> Perhaps there should be book Abbreviation data element as there is for
> Journals. If the user added a Book Abbreviation for a reference, maybe
> CiteProc could return that instead of the Short title. That way the user
> could decide on the default action?
>
> Another option -
> CiteProc returns the Book Abbreviation which is stored in the database and
> with the reference data as a separate text string along with my suggested
> list-
>
> * In-text citation
> * Footnote initial citation
> * Footnote subsequent citation
> * Endnote initial citation
> * Endnote subsequent citation
> * Ibid or 'op cite' text

For the record, I strongly object to including support for op cite
citations. They are:

a) an abomination for readers
b) unnecessary with citation software
c) for both these resaons, not recommended in contemporary style manuals

At a certain point we just need to reject old traditions when they defy logic.

Second, I really dislike the complexity of adding three different
kinds of citation style support to any given style. I certainly don't
support it in CSL or citeproc. If I choose APA, I am by definition
using an in-text author-year style, and it makes no sense to to give
users the option to use footnoies and endnotes.

For Chicago, which has different variants, the users can choose which
one; each as separate styles. And whether a note citation is at the
bottom of the page or the end of the document is largely irrelevant as
I've been thinking about it. In CSL, you define "note" citations, with
an option to distinguish first and subsequent.

> * Book Abbreviation (new)
>
> Then the user has the option buttons -
>
> "Use Abbreviation instead of Short Title for all subsequent citations y/n"
> "insert intext or footnote"

So you want to do this on a per-reference basis? Again, you need
somewhere to store it; don't you?

> Also, I was told that if I used major authorities frequently I must use the
> standard abbreviations. So we do need a way of using them.

I'm just a little overwhelmed with worrying about all the pieces that
we have to get right here, and will be really impressed if we manage
even to implement the more limited vision we've been talking about
(which is still more amitious, for example, than what MS is doing).

It's worth noting that MS is also adding support for tables of
authorities for legal citations, but they are doing it in a
fundamentally different way than using citation fields. The user just
tags a piece of text as such an entry, and then the list gets
assembled.

I think for some of the more complex stuff, we might need to consider
that option. Not everything can/should be gracefully automated?

Bruce

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