Information for volunteers

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
9 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Information for volunteers

jan iversen
As agreed with Rob, I have put together a list of information, that would
have me problems and time for all those that helped me.

This list is just a starting point (all the information is out there, so it
should just be a list with links)

Suggested reading for all volunteers:
- Where do I find information (wiki, cwiki, mailing lists) ?
- What can I do to help ?
- How is the organization (contributor, committer etc....all the way up) ?
- Who is who ? (It would be good to have a list of the key persons) ?
- What are our relationship to other openOffice packages (can I use my
contribution elsewhere) ?

Suggested reading for Wiki contributors
- Which writing rules do we have (do I change a page directly or use talk)
- How is the content controlled, basically I can write anything, are there
any QA ?
- How is the structure of Wiki ? (and temporary, which parts are old and
outdated) ?
- Who do I contact if I have problems/questions/need guidance ?

Suggested reading for a translator
- Where do I find correct information about localization (some wiki pages
are misguiding, and l10n.openoffice.org is NOT a good starting point)
- Where can I see status of the ongoing translations ?
. Which tools do I need and how do I use them (any standards) ?
- Who do I contact to get started ?

Suggested reading for a tester
- How can I help testing ?
- Is it possible to test in my native language ?
- Which tools do I need ?
- How do I report bugs ?
- Who do I contact, if I want to be a tester ?

Suggested reading for a developer
- Where do I find guidance on how to write a source code (naming standards
etc.) ?
- Where do I find build instructions (I found 5 different for Ubuntu...the
last one was pretty good, but I still had to ask on dev for the last bit (a
simple flag was wrong))
- Where do I find source ?
- When do I need to use the sources, and when to use extensions ?
- Where do I find the bug reporting system ?
- How can I "reserve" a bug for me to solve ?


Then of course as you grow more into the community you get more questions
(like CMS etc), but I think to cover that would be too much.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Information for volunteers

Alexandro Colorado-4
On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 1:41 PM, jan iversen <[hidden email]>wrote:

> As agreed with Rob, I have put together a list of information, that would
> have me problems and time for all those that helped me.
>
> This list is just a starting point (all the information is out there, so it
> should just be a list with links)
>
> Suggested reading for all volunteers:
> - Where do I find information (wiki, cwiki, mailing lists) ?
> - What can I do to help ?
> - How is the organization (contributor, committer etc....all the way up) ?
> - Who is who ? (It would be good to have a list of the key persons) ?
> - What are our relationship to other openOffice packages (can I use my
> contribution elsewhere) ?
>
> Suggested reading for Wiki contributors
> - Which writing rules do we have (do I change a page directly or use talk)
> - How is the content controlled, basically I can write anything, are there
> any QA ?
> - How is the structure of Wiki ? (and temporary, which parts are old and
> outdated) ?
> - Who do I contact if I have problems/questions/need guidance ?
>
> Suggested reading for a translator
> - Where do I find correct information about localization (some wiki pages
> are misguiding, and l10n.openoffice.org is NOT a good starting point)
> - Where can I see status of the ongoing translations ?
> . Which tools do I need and how do I use them (any standards) ?
> - Who do I contact to get started ?
>
> Suggested reading for a tester
> - How can I help testing ?
> - Is it possible to test in my native language ?
> - Which tools do I need ?
> - How do I report bugs ?
> - Who do I contact, if I want to be a tester ?
>
> Suggested reading for a developer
> - Where do I find guidance on how to write a source code (naming standards
> etc.) ?
> - Where do I find build instructions (I found 5 different for Ubuntu...the
> last one was pretty good, but I still had to ask on dev for the last bit (a
> simple flag was wrong))
> - Where do I find source ?
> - When do I need to use the sources, and when to use extensions ?
> - Where do I find the bug reporting system ?
> - How can I "reserve" a bug for me to solve ?
>
>
> Then of course as you grow more into the community you get more questions
> (like CMS etc), but I think to cover that would be too much.
>

There is a bit of a dilema here, what to know where to point if we still
not sure what will be there?

What I mean is that most of the l10n processes are not defined, so at the
moment the only functional part is the mailing list.

No QaSTE, Pootle (still unstable), TCM (gone), Continuousl10n (non
avialable anymore), Glossaries (gone as well).

So what do we have? Pootle has a process of 'only commiters' can provide or
QA the localized strings.

A think tank of a ML.

This makes it somewhat easy... just calling everyone on the l10n list,
however. Localization was a HUGE part of OOo, it worked closely with the
NLC communities, as well as with QA and Release teams. So it was a hibrid
of internationalization and engineering. So the process normally was a
mixture of  technical and community minded processes. So is important we
take this into account in order to have a roadmap, and in order of this
roadmap we should direct the future localization community into that
direction.

So we need, engineers, we need localizaers, linguist, applications, and
INFRA and things in that order to properly construct the infrastructure.

Either custom webapps or borrowed applications. An example is what
LibreOffice did replacing TCM with an application called MozTrap:
http://vm12.documentfoundation.org/manage/cases/

Glossaries are now handled on the wiki, which is not optimal as far as
terminology management.

Other non product related activities like website making it more flexible
with language. We observed tools like localize.js which help manage the
right locale for users.
http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Website/Localization#Locale.js

So think JS expertise as well and maybe some HTML5 geolocation intelligence.

--
Alexandro Colorado
PPMC Apache OpenOffice
http://es.openoffice.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Information for volunteers

jan iversen
You give me a headache and a bad conscience over all the thing I could do
but have not (yet) done :-)

I have put some comments below, in general the list was not only for l10n
but in general for new volunteers joining in.

But to counter my headache, I hope you will be my active reviewer and
committer when my document and l10n web page is ready  ?

have a nice night.
jan

On 19 October 2012 21:20, Alexandro Colorado <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 1:41 PM, jan iversen <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > As agreed with Rob, I have put together a list of information, that would
> > have me problems and time for all those that helped me.
> >
> > This list is just a starting point (all the information is out there, so
> it
> > should just be a list with links)
> >
> > Suggested reading for all volunteers:
> > - Where do I find information (wiki, cwiki, mailing lists) ?
> > - What can I do to help ?
> > - How is the organization (contributor, committer etc....all the way up)
> ?
> > - Who is who ? (It would be good to have a list of the key persons) ?
> > - What are our relationship to other openOffice packages (can I use my
> > contribution elsewhere) ?
> >
> > Suggested reading for Wiki contributors
> > - Which writing rules do we have (do I change a page directly or use
> talk)
> > - How is the content controlled, basically I can write anything, are
> there
> > any QA ?
> > - How is the structure of Wiki ? (and temporary, which parts are old and
> > outdated) ?
> > - Who do I contact if I have problems/questions/need guidance ?
> >
> > Suggested reading for a translator
> > - Where do I find correct information about localization (some wiki pages
> > are misguiding, and l10n.openoffice.org is NOT a good starting point)
> > - Where can I see status of the ongoing translations ?
> > . Which tools do I need and how do I use them (any standards) ?
> > - Who do I contact to get started ?
> >
> > Suggested reading for a tester
> > - How can I help testing ?
> > - Is it possible to test in my native language ?
> > - Which tools do I need ?
> > - How do I report bugs ?
> > - Who do I contact, if I want to be a tester ?
> >
> > Suggested reading for a developer
> > - Where do I find guidance on how to write a source code (naming
> standards
> > etc.) ?
> > - Where do I find build instructions (I found 5 different for
> Ubuntu...the
> > last one was pretty good, but I still had to ask on dev for the last bit
> (a
> > simple flag was wrong))
> > - Where do I find source ?
> > - When do I need to use the sources, and when to use extensions ?
> > - Where do I find the bug reporting system ?
> > - How can I "reserve" a bug for me to solve ?
> >
> >
> > Then of course as you grow more into the community you get more questions
> > (like CMS etc), but I think to cover that would be too much.
> >
>
> There is a bit of a dilema here, what to know where to point if we still
> not sure what will be there?
>
You are quite right, but that is no excuse for leaving all the old content
untouched and making people like me utterly confused.


>
> What I mean is that most of the l10n processes are not defined, so at the
> moment the only functional part is the mailing list.
>
I am getting there...I hope my wiki "Localization AOO" was a bit more than
just the mailing list, and I hope to have the new proposal ready no later
than monday...l10n web page is a bit more difficult, because I have to find
a way of making it new, without long discussions of what  can go and what
should stay (my opinion is quite clear, doing something is better than to
sit on your hands).


>
> No QaSTE, Pootle (still unstable), TCM (gone), Continuousl10n (non
> avialable anymore), Glossaries (gone as well).
>
Hold on, what is QaSte, Continousl10n, I might have been doing consultancy
job for/with Sun but in a different ballgame (Unix for PC).
Glossaries is a main part of my proposal.


>
> So what do we have? Pootle has a process of 'only commiters' can provide or
> QA the localized strings.
>
Just my words!

>
> A think tank of a ML.
>
> This makes it somewhat easy... just calling everyone on the l10n list,
> however. Localization was a HUGE part of OOo, it worked closely with the
> NLC communities, as well as with QA and Release teams. So it was a hibrid
> of internationalization and engineering. So the process normally was a
> mixture of  technical and community minded processes. So is important we
> take this into account in order to have a roadmap, and in order of this
> roadmap we should direct the future localization community into that
> direction.
>
I agree totally, Localization seems to be a stepson of AOO, which it for
sure isn´t !!! it needs to be an integrated part, which is why I started
writing documents.

Why can´t you or even better we get that going again, I believe a lot of
translators/volunteers are out there just waiting to see what happens, so
lets make it happen....1+1 can be quite a lot more than 2 !!

>
> So we need, engineers, we need localizaers, linguist, applications, and
> INFRA and things in that order to properly construct the infrastructure.
>
You am 1 engineer with plenty of spare time (I have stopped working for
money), and there seems to be plenty of volunteers out there who want to
help....what we really need is ORGANISATION, and that is where I come from
(having had my own companies for 20+ years), so again lets make this happen
!

>
> Either custom webapps or borrowed applications. An example is what
> LibreOffice did replacing TCM with an application called MozTrap:
> http://vm12.documentfoundation.org/manage/cases/
>
You have a thorough knowledge which I can only hope to gain in the years to
come, but I think I have other skills to offer.

>
> Glossaries are now handled on the wiki, which is not optimal as far as
> terminology management.
>
That is by far NOT optimal, glossary is of highly value and belongs in SVN
alongside with translations !!

>
> Other non product related activities like website making it more flexible
> with language. We observed tools like localize.js which help manage the
> right locale for users.
> http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Website/Localization#Locale.js
>
> So think JS expertise as well and maybe some HTML5 geolocation
> intelligence.
>

--
> Alexandro Colorado
> PPMC Apache OpenOffice
> http://es.openoffice.org
>

To sum it up, I like your comments a LOT, but let join up, build a team and
put actin behind the words. I as contributor and you as committor can by
catalysts to get things moving !

There are 3 big issues outstanding:
- get a more robust l10n workflow in place,
- get the l10n documentation in place,
- get the people involved back together.

But all it takes is motivation and a couple of people with different skill
sets.

Sorry for this a bit emotional mail, but after a long day with editing, I
cannot help thinking.....we need to be DOING and not just talking.

have a nice night.
janI.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Information for volunteers

Alexandro Colorado-4
On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 4:26 PM, jan iversen <[hidden email]>wrote:

> You give me a headache and a bad conscience over all the thing I could do
> but have not (yet) done :-)
>

Sorry wasnt my intention, I just want to prevent that before throwing
everything out and starting from scratch, at least read what was there so
we dont need to go through the many gotchas again.


>
> I have put some comments below, in general the list was not only for l10n
> but in general for new volunteers joining in.
>
> But to counter my headache, I hope you will be my active reviewer and
> committer when my document and l10n web page is ready  ?
>
> have a nice night.
> jan
>
> On 19 October 2012 21:20, Alexandro Colorado <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 1:41 PM, jan iversen <[hidden email]
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > As agreed with Rob, I have put together a list of information, that
> would
> > > have me problems and time for all those that helped me.
> > >
> > > This list is just a starting point (all the information is out there,
> so
> > it
> > > should just be a list with links)
> > >
> > > Suggested reading for all volunteers:
> > > - Where do I find information (wiki, cwiki, mailing lists) ?
>
> > - What can I do to help ?
>
> > - How is the organization (contributor, committer etc....all the way up)
> > ?
> > > - Who is who ? (It would be good to have a list of the key persons) ?
> > > - What are our relationship to other openOffice packages (can I use my
> > > contribution elsewhere) ?
> > >
> > > Suggested reading for Wiki contributors
> > > - Which writing rules do we have (do I change a page directly or use
> > talk)
> > > - How is the content controlled, basically I can write anything, are
> > there
> > > any QA ?
> > > - How is the structure of Wiki ? (and temporary, which parts are old
> and
> > > outdated) ?
> > > - Who do I contact if I have problems/questions/need guidance ?
> > >
> > > Suggested reading for a translator
> > > - Where do I find correct information about localization (some wiki
> pages
> > > are misguiding, and l10n.openoffice.org is NOT a good starting point)
> > > - Where can I see status of the ongoing translations ?
> > > . Which tools do I need and how do I use them (any standards) ?
> > > - Who do I contact to get started ?
> > >
> > > Suggested reading for a tester
> > > - How can I help testing ?
> > > - Is it possible to test in my native language ?
> > > - Which tools do I need ?
> > > - How do I report bugs ?
> > > - Who do I contact, if I want to be a tester ?
> > >
> > > Suggested reading for a developer
> > > - Where do I find guidance on how to write a source code (naming
> > standards
> > > etc.) ?
> > > - Where do I find build instructions (I found 5 different for
> > Ubuntu...the
> > > last one was pretty good, but I still had to ask on dev for the last
> bit
> > (a
> > > simple flag was wrong))
> > > - Where do I find source ?
> > > - When do I need to use the sources, and when to use extensions ?
> > > - Where do I find the bug reporting system ?
> > > - How can I "reserve" a bug for me to solve ?
> > >
> > >
> > > Then of course as you grow more into the community you get more
> questions
> > > (like CMS etc), but I think to cover that would be too much.
> > >
> >
> > There is a bit of a dilema here, what to know where to point if we still
> > not sure what will be there?
> >
> You are quite right, but that is no excuse for leaving all the old content
> untouched and making people like me utterly confused.
>
>
> >
> > What I mean is that most of the l10n processes are not defined, so at the
> > moment the only functional part is the mailing list.
> >
> I am getting there...I hope my wiki "Localization AOO" was a bit more than
> just the mailing list, and I hope to have the new proposal ready no later
> than monday...l10n web page is a bit more difficult, because I have to find
> a way of making it new, without long discussions of what  can go and what
> should stay (my opinion is quite clear, doing something is better than to
> sit on your hands).
>

Start by clasifying old content and links. Probably nobody would oppose to
put >3.x info as archived content.


>
>
> >
> > No QaSTE, Pootle (still unstable), TCM (gone), Continuousl10n (non
> > avialable anymore), Glossaries (gone as well).
> >
> Hold on, what is QaSte, Continousl10n, I might have been doing consultancy
> job for/with Sun but in a different ballgame (Unix for PC).
> Glossaries is a main part of my proposal.
>

Those were applications on Sun/Oracle servers that were tools of the l10n
process. Some manuals are in the site some are in the wiki. But the apps no
longer exist. We should review if these were also donated by oracle, or
not, and if we want them back or go for an alternative and replace the
process.


>
>
> >
> > So what do we have? Pootle has a process of 'only commiters' can provide
> or
> > QA the localized strings.
> >
> Just my words!
>

Do we want to keep it to only commiters? what if the commiter dont speak
that language? there is nobody to approve the suggestion?


>
> >
> > A think tank of a ML.
> >
> > This makes it somewhat easy... just calling everyone on the l10n list,
> > however. Localization was a HUGE part of OOo, it worked closely with the
> > NLC communities, as well as with QA and Release teams. So it was a hibrid
> > of internationalization and engineering. So the process normally was a
> > mixture of  technical and community minded processes. So is important we
> > take this into account in order to have a roadmap, and in order of this
> > roadmap we should direct the future localization community into that
> > direction.
> >
> I agree totally, Localization seems to be a stepson of AOO, which it for
> sure isn´t !!! it needs to be an integrated part, which is why I started
> writing documents.
>
> Why can´t you or even better we get that going again, I believe a lot of
> translators/volunteers are out there just waiting to see what happens, so
> lets make it happen....1+1 can be quite a lot more than 2 !!
>

We need a call for action on Dev list, reference to the site, present it in
a manner is clear (your document), just make it easy to read and follow.
Lengthy documents are such a ToDo. We need a: Do X, Do Y, Winning!!


>
> >
> > So we need, engineers, we need localizaers, linguist, applications, and
> > INFRA and things in that order to properly construct the infrastructure.
> >
> You am 1 engineer with plenty of spare time (I have stopped working for
> money), and there seems to be plenty of volunteers out there who want to
> help....what we really need is ORGANISATION, and that is where I come from
> (having had my own companies for 20+ years), so again lets make this happen
> !
>

Ok I have done some cleanup already on l10n, nothing major just point to
the current ML, label some sites as outdated and pointing them back to the
ML page at incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg. Would probably need help
changing all that to the top level domain now.


>
> >
> > Either custom webapps or borrowed applications. An example is what
> > LibreOffice did replacing TCM with an application called MozTrap:
> > http://vm12.documentfoundation.org/manage/cases/
> >
> You have a thorough knowledge which I can only hope to gain in the years to
> come, but I think I have other skills to offer.
>

There are Quaste and TCM manuals on the site/wiki, please speed read them
to make sure u know what this meant.


>
> >
> > Glossaries are now handled on the wiki, which is not optimal as far as
> > terminology management.
> >
> That is by far NOT optimal, glossary is of highly value and belongs in SVN
> alongside with translations !!
>

Ok still, need to decide on the best methdology.
* Maintaining an ods (binary) would be a pain.
* svn is limited for contributors, we would make it hard for the casual
contributor, so what to do?
* There are some old glossaries on the site for English, Greek, Russian,
and Servian on csv already on the l10n/localization/ folder.
* Include this in pootle (Libo do this) you can see this for spanish
https://translations.documentfoundation.org/es/


>
> >
> > Other non product related activities like website making it more flexible
> > with language. We observed tools like localize.js which help manage the
> > right locale for users.
> > http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Website/Localization#Locale.js
> >
> > So think JS expertise as well and maybe some HTML5 geolocation
> > intelligence.
> >
>
> --
> > Alexandro Colorado
> > PPMC Apache OpenOffice
> > http://es.openoffice.org
> >
>
> To sum it up, I like your comments a LOT, but let join up, build a team and
> put actin behind the words. I as contributor and you as committor can by
> catalysts to get things moving !
>
> There are 3 big issues outstanding:
> - get a more robust l10n workflow in place,
> - get the l10n documentation in place,
> - get the people involved back together.
>
> But all it takes is motivation and a couple of people with different skill
> sets.
>
> Sorry for this a bit emotional mail, but after a long day with editing, I
> cannot help thinking.....we need to be DOING and not just talking.
>
> have a nice night.
> janI.
>



--
Alexandro Colorado
PPMC Apache OpenOffice
http://es.openoffice.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Information for volunteers

jan iversen
Se below please.

On 20 October 2012 19:21, Alexandro Colorado <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 4:26 PM, jan iversen <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > You give me a headache and a bad conscience over all the thing I could do
> > but have not (yet) done :-)
> >
>
> Sorry wasnt my intention, I just want to prevent that before throwing
> everything out and starting from scratch, at least read what was there so
> we dont need to go through the many gotchas again.
>
> I hope you noticed the :-) I just want to get things moving, and I hear
you say the same thing.

I have no intention of starting from scratch, I have used quite some hours
researching
- our sites
- libreOffice
- openSource (for the tools used)
- my old sun knowledge

BUT my document is limited to describe the technical workflow of l10n,
there are soo many other things which need to be done, as you correctly
point out later in this mail..I think one step in the right direction is
better than none.


>
> >
> > I have put some comments below, in general the list was not only for l10n
> > but in general for new volunteers joining in.
> >
> > But to counter my headache, I hope you will be my active reviewer and
> > committer when my document and l10n web page is ready  ?
> >
> > have a nice night.
> > jan
> >
> > On 19 October 2012 21:20, Alexandro Colorado <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 1:41 PM, jan iversen <[hidden email]
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > As agreed with Rob, I have put together a list of information, that
> > would
> > > > have me problems and time for all those that helped me.
> > > >
> > > > This list is just a starting point (all the information is out there,
> > so
> > > it
> > > > should just be a list with links)
> > > >
> > > > Suggested reading for all volunteers:
> > > > - Where do I find information (wiki, cwiki, mailing lists) ?
> >
> > > - What can I do to help ?
> >
> > > - How is the organization (contributor, committer etc....all the way
> up)
> > > ?
> > > > - Who is who ? (It would be good to have a list of the key persons) ?
> > > > - What are our relationship to other openOffice packages (can I use
> my
> > > > contribution elsewhere) ?
> > > >
> > > > Suggested reading for Wiki contributors
> > > > - Which writing rules do we have (do I change a page directly or use
> > > talk)
> > > > - How is the content controlled, basically I can write anything, are
> > > there
> > > > any QA ?
> > > > - How is the structure of Wiki ? (and temporary, which parts are old
> > and
> > > > outdated) ?
> > > > - Who do I contact if I have problems/questions/need guidance ?
> > > >
> > > > Suggested reading for a translator
> > > > - Where do I find correct information about localization (some wiki
> > pages
> > > > are misguiding, and l10n.openoffice.org is NOT a good starting
> point)
> > > > - Where can I see status of the ongoing translations ?
> > > > . Which tools do I need and how do I use them (any standards) ?
> > > > - Who do I contact to get started ?
> > > >
> > > > Suggested reading for a tester
> > > > - How can I help testing ?
> > > > - Is it possible to test in my native language ?
> > > > - Which tools do I need ?
> > > > - How do I report bugs ?
> > > > - Who do I contact, if I want to be a tester ?
> > > >
> > > > Suggested reading for a developer
> > > > - Where do I find guidance on how to write a source code (naming
> > > standards
> > > > etc.) ?
> > > > - Where do I find build instructions (I found 5 different for
> > > Ubuntu...the
> > > > last one was pretty good, but I still had to ask on dev for the last
> > bit
> > > (a
> > > > simple flag was wrong))
> > > > - Where do I find source ?
> > > > - When do I need to use the sources, and when to use extensions ?
> > > > - Where do I find the bug reporting system ?
> > > > - How can I "reserve" a bug for me to solve ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Then of course as you grow more into the community you get more
> > questions
> > > > (like CMS etc), but I think to cover that would be too much.
> > > >
> > >
> > > There is a bit of a dilema here, what to know where to point if we
> still
> > > not sure what will be there?
> > >
> > You are quite right, but that is no excuse for leaving all the old
> content
> > untouched and making people like me utterly confused.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > What I mean is that most of the l10n processes are not defined, so at
> the
> > > moment the only functional part is the mailing list.
> > >
> > I am getting there...I hope my wiki "Localization AOO" was a bit more
> than
> > just the mailing list, and I hope to have the new proposal ready no later
> > than monday...l10n web page is a bit more difficult, because I have to
> find
> > a way of making it new, without long discussions of what  can go and what
> > should stay (my opinion is quite clear, doing something is better than to
> > sit on your hands).
> >
>
> Start by clasifying old content and links. Probably nobody would oppose to
> put >3.x info as archived content.
>
Fine advice, I will do that...right now I am concentrating on index.html to
get it eye catchy, informative and still with look and feel of
openoffice.org.

>
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > No QaSTE, Pootle (still unstable), TCM (gone), Continuousl10n (non
> > > avialable anymore), Glossaries (gone as well).
> > >
> > Hold on, what is QaSte, Continousl10n, I might have been doing
> consultancy
> > job for/with Sun but in a different ballgame (Unix for PC).
> > Glossaries is a main part of my proposal.
> >
>
> Those were applications on Sun/Oracle servers that were tools of the l10n
> process. Some manuals are in the site some are in the wiki. But the apps no
> longer exist. We should review if these were also donated by oracle, or
> not, and if we want them back or go for an alternative and replace the
> process.
>
How can I proceed to get the manuals ? I have looked through the sites I
know of, without finding anything, except TCM which I think sun used for
the UNIX PC product line.

>
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > So what do we have? Pootle has a process of 'only commiters' can
> provide
> > or
> > > QA the localized strings.
> > >
> > Just my words!
> >
>
> Do we want to keep it to only commiters? what if the commiter dont speak
> that language? there is nobody to approve the suggestion?
>
NO DEFINITIVELY NO, in my humble opinion...but I did suggest to make an
"anonymous" user on pootle for offline translators, and that was not meet
with positive tunes.

I think we have to live that there are committers and contributors, and to
be honest helped in another project where it was total open and as a
consequence total unstable.

What we need is a clever way that contributors are offered the same
services, and do not feel it as a burden to go through a committer to get
the translation accepted. I compare it with a contributor that solves a
bug, it still need to go through a committer to be integrated in the code.
iitude
I have learned quite a lot the last weeks, this project is by far not like
many other openSource project, alone the size and scale of contributors
makes it different, and I hope my document will reflect that. BUT I do not
want to put too high expectations on the document, as written earlier, it
"simply" changes the technical process, not the atttitude towards people.


>
>
> >
> > >
> > > A think tank of a ML.
> > >
> > > This makes it somewhat easy... just calling everyone on the l10n list,
> > > however. Localization was a HUGE part of OOo, it worked closely with
> the
> > > NLC communities, as well as with QA and Release teams. So it was a
> hibrid
> > > of internationalization and engineering. So the process normally was a
> > > mixture of  technical and community minded processes. So is important
> we
> > > take this into account in order to have a roadmap, and in order of this
> > > roadmap we should direct the future localization community into that
> > > direction.
> > >
> > I agree totally, Localization seems to be a stepson of AOO, which it for
> > sure isn´t !!! it needs to be an integrated part, which is why I started
> > writing documents.
> >
> > Why can´t you or even better we get that going again, I believe a lot of
> > translators/volunteers are out there just waiting to see what happens, so
> > lets make it happen....1+1 can be quite a lot more than 2 !!
> >
>
> We need a call for action on Dev list, reference to the site, present it in
> a manner is clear (your document), just make it easy to read and follow.
> Lengthy documents are such a ToDo. We need a: Do X, Do Y, Winning!!
>
In my document there is a project plan, but it includes only tools etc. not
how to get in touch with the NLC again.

I will for sure present the document on this and the dev mailing list, but
I think we need more than that.


>
>
> >
> > >
> > > So we need, engineers, we need localizaers, linguist, applications, and
> > > INFRA and things in that order to properly construct the
> infrastructure.
> > >
> > You am 1 engineer with plenty of spare time (I have stopped working for
> > money), and there seems to be plenty of volunteers out there who want to
> > help....what we really need is ORGANISATION, and that is where I come
> from
> > (having had my own companies for 20+ years), so again lets make this
> happen
> > !
> >
>
> Ok I have done some cleanup already on l10n, nothing major just point to
> the current ML, label some sites as outdated and pointing them back to the
> ML page at incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg. Would probably need help
> changing all that to the top level domain now.
>

I am working on it, as of now, I have been through all pages, marking them
as old or to be kept (in my opinion).

I run it on my personal apache, and once it works as I like, I intent to
tarball it, and ask you to have a look at it, and then I am not sure what
is the correct way:
1) publish and correct the objections received
2) put up on a test site (where?) and wait until there are no more
objections.

Right now I think there are only very few people who concern them self
about  the l10n workflow and even less who have an opinion about the site.
I have however some opinions and time to present them....we NEED BADLY to
get the NLC community back together, before the forget AOO and drift
elsewhere.


>
> >
> > >
> > > Either custom webapps or borrowed applications. An example is what
> > > LibreOffice did replacing TCM with an application called MozTrap:
> > > http://vm12.documentfoundation.org/manage/cases/
> > >
> > You have a thorough knowledge which I can only hope to gain in the years
> to
> > come, but I think I have other skills to offer.
> >
>
> There are Quaste and TCM manuals on the site/wiki, please speed read them
> to make sure u know what this meant.
>
If I read it correctly TCM (as I had guessed from SUN) is a predessor to
Quaste a UI test tool and Quality ensurance tool

I had the impression, that we have automated test tools, that test our UI
with each release ?? (at least there is a directory with a name that hints
that functionality). I have just written in my document that these tools
should be able to run the same tests for language versions.

>
>
> >
> > >
> > > Glossaries are now handled on the wiki, which is not optimal as far as
> > > terminology management.
> > >
> > That is by far NOT optimal, glossary is of highly value and belongs in
> SVN
> > alongside with translations !!
> >
>
> Ok still, need to decide on the best methdology.
> * Maintaining an ods (binary) would be a pain.
>
Yes, My intention was to keep it as a file (.po or .xliff)

> * svn is limited for contributors, we would make it hard for the casual
> contributor, so what to do?
>
We can still make a php script on l10n.openoffice.org that generates a zip
file ready for download. Upload needs to be committed.

I think the advantages of using SVN are so much higher (think of tracking,
reviews etc), than only to use a simple filestore, so I would live with the
fact that is has to go through a committer (just like code changes).

* There are some old glossaries on the site for English, Greek, Russian,
> and Servian on csv already on the l10n/localization/ folder.
> * Include this in pootle (Libo do this) you can see this for spanish
>
If my proposal is accepted I will do this, and I would also like to call
the community because I know there is f.x. a german glossary as well. The
danish glossary might have been lost, because of the "border" between LO
and AOO.

> https://translations.documentfoundation.org/es/
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > Other non product related activities like website making it more
> flexible
> > > with language. We observed tools like localize.js which help manage the
> > > right locale for users.
> > > http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Website/Localization#Locale.js
> > >
> > > So think JS expertise as well and maybe some HTML5 geolocation
> > > intelligence.
> > >
> >
> > --
> > > Alexandro Colorado
> > > PPMC Apache OpenOffice
> > > http://es.openoffice.org
> > >
> >
> > To sum it up, I like your comments a LOT, but let join up, build a team
> and
> > put actin behind the words. I as contributor and you as committor can by
> > catalysts to get things moving !
> >
> > There are 3 big issues outstanding:
> > - get a more robust l10n workflow in place,
> > - get the l10n documentation in place,
> > - get the people involved back together.
> >
> > But all it takes is motivation and a couple of people with different
> skill
> > sets.
> >
> > Sorry for this a bit emotional mail, but after a long day with editing, I
> > cannot help thinking.....we need to be DOING and not just talking.
> >
> > have a nice night.
> > janI.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Alexandro Colorado
> PPMC Apache OpenOffice
> http://es.openoffice.org
>

Have a nice night
Jan.

Ps. you reference es. may I ask where in spain are you located, I live in
alora/andalucia ?
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Information for volunteers

Rob Weir
In reply to this post by jan iversen
On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 2:41 PM, jan iversen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As agreed with Rob, I have put together a list of information, that would
> have me problems and time for all those that helped me.
>
> This list is just a starting point (all the information is out there, so it
> should just be a list with links)
>
> Suggested reading for all volunteers:
> - Where do I find information (wiki, cwiki, mailing lists) ?
> - What can I do to help ?
> - How is the organization (contributor, committer etc....all the way up) ?
> - Who is who ? (It would be good to have a list of the key persons) ?
> - What are our relationship to other openOffice packages (can I use my
> contribution elsewhere) ?
>

OK.  The above corresponds to what I've been calling "level-1" (until
I find a better term).  The documentation for this is in progress,

> Suggested reading for Wiki contributors
> - Which writing rules do we have (do I change a page directly or use talk)
> - How is the content controlled, basically I can write anything, are there
> any QA ?
> - How is the structure of Wiki ? (and temporary, which parts are old and
> outdated) ?
> - Who do I contact if I have problems/questions/need guidance ?
>

Personally I think of the wiki as a tool, not a role.  So developers,
QA, translators, support, doc, we all use the wiki and contribute
content.  It is a general skill, something I might put in a general
"level-2" doc.

> Suggested reading for a translator
> - Where do I find correct information about localization (some wiki pages
> are misguiding, and l10n.openoffice.org is NOT a good starting point)
> - Where can I see status of the ongoing translations ?
> . Which tools do I need and how do I use them (any standards) ?
> - Who do I contact to get started ?
>

Now we get to the meat of it.  Or the tofu of it, if you are vegetarian ;-)

Each volunteer has their own particular interests, and it is a little
dangerous to generalize, but I think in practice these are the common
profiles:

1) Volunteer wants to help maintain a translation of AOO for their
language.  They don't desire broader engagement with the project.  In
fact they find the traffic level on the lists annoying.  They might
pop in once or twice during the development of a release, but in
general are not engaged with the project.

2) Volunteers who want be more engaged with enabling AOO for their
locale.  So they help maintain the translation, but also an NL
website.  They might help on an NL discussion forum.  They might
control a NL-specific Twitter account or Facebook page.  They might
help organize local events related to AOO.  In their country, they are
"Mr. OpenOffice".  So such a volunteer is cross-functional, but
focused on activities related to that single language.

3) Volunteers interested in the general internationalization process
with the project.  So not just a single language, but end-to-end,
including the parts that intersect with the programmers and admins.
They define and support the processes and tools that support the
localization volunteers.

So it might make sense to split this into two "levels" (until I find a
better word!), one focused on localization.  They don't need to
understand the tools and SDF files and the messiness that occurs
behind the scenes.  They just need to know how to get the files to
translate, how to translate, how to submit the translations, and how
to get a test build to verify the translation.  So it is a loop of
translate-test-fix.

My group 2 above would benefit from further documentation about
marketing, about website design, etc.,  but that is best covered by
those groups.  It is not really a localization question.

Group 3 volunteers -- that involves procedures that are not fully
defined and which require manual intervention.  So I think we'll be
documenting and improving in parallel.

The big question we should ask ourselves is this:  when do we feel
good enough about our documentation for localization voluntees that we
can do a broader "call for volunteers" on the website?  If next week
we had 10 volunteers introduce themselves on the mailing list, for 10
different languages, could we handle it?  I don't think so, not
without a great deal of confusion.  So I think we need two basic
things:

1) Accurate, current documentation for volunteers that are focused on
translating.

2) A more automated way to process PO files, so we don't drive
Juergen, our Release Manager, crazy with requests for special
translation builds.  Maybe if we can get to a steady heart beat of
snapshot builds (say every week or every two weeks) we can
automatically include any updated translation in that build?

> Suggested reading for a tester
> - How can I help testing ?
> - Is it possible to test in my native language ?
> - Which tools do I need ?
> - How do I report bugs ?
> - Who do I contact, if I want to be a tester ?
>
> Suggested reading for a developer
> - Where do I find guidance on how to write a source code (naming standards
> etc.) ?
> - Where do I find build instructions (I found 5 different for Ubuntu...the
> last one was pretty good, but I still had to ask on dev for the last bit (a
> simple flag was wrong))
> - Where do I find source ?
> - When do I need to use the sources, and when to use extensions ?
> - Where do I find the bug reporting system ?
> - How can I "reserve" a bug for me to solve ?
>
>
> Then of course as you grow more into the community you get more questions
> (like CMS etc), but I think to cover that would be too much.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Information for volunteers

jan iversen
See below please.


On 20 October 2012 22:21, Rob Weir <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 2:41 PM, jan iversen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > As agreed with Rob, I have put together a list of information, that would
> > have me problems and time for all those that helped me.
> >
> > This list is just a starting point (all the information is out there, so
> it
> > should just be a list with links)
> >
> > Suggested reading for all volunteers:
> > - Where do I find information (wiki, cwiki, mailing lists) ?
> > - What can I do to help ?
> > - How is the organization (contributor, committer etc....all the way up)
> ?
> > - Who is who ? (It would be good to have a list of the key persons) ?
> > - What are our relationship to other openOffice packages (can I use my
> > contribution elsewhere) ?
> >
>
> OK.  The above corresponds to what I've been calling "level-1" (until
> I find a better term).  The documentation for this is in progress,


> > Suggested reading for Wiki contributors
> > - Which writing rules do we have (do I change a page directly or use
> talk)
> > - How is the content controlled, basically I can write anything, are
> there
> > any QA ?
> > - How is the structure of Wiki ? (and temporary, which parts are old and
> > outdated) ?
> > - Who do I contact if I have problems/questions/need guidance ?
> >
>
> Personally I think of the wiki as a tool, not a role.  So developers,
> QA, translators, support, doc, we all use the wiki and contribute
> content.  It is a general skill, something I might put in a general
> "level-2" doc.
>
You are right, that is not part of the first stumping steps, and it is a
general skill.

>
> > Suggested reading for a translator
> > - Where do I find correct information about localization (some wiki pages
> > are misguiding, and l10n.openoffice.org is NOT a good starting point)
> > - Where can I see status of the ongoing translations ?
> > . Which tools do I need and how do I use them (any standards) ?
> > - Who do I contact to get started ?
> >
>
> Now we get to the meat of it.  Or the tofu of it, if you are vegetarian ;-)
>

Each volunteer has their own particular interests, and it is a little
> dangerous to generalize, but I think in practice these are the common
> profiles:
>
You are right in dividing the volunteers, and I think the majority are
class 1, but might grow into the other classes.

>
> 1) Volunteer wants to help maintain a translation of AOO for their
> language.  They don't desire broader engagement with the project.  In
> fact they find the traffic level on the lists annoying.  They might
> pop in once or twice during the development of a release, but in
> general are not engaged with the project.
>
maybe l10n.openoffice.org would be a perfect media for them. We could use
that place to show ongoing translation, have pointers to to country
specific wiki information and contact mails.


>
> 2) Volunteers who want be more engaged with enabling AOO for their
> locale.  So they help maintain the translation, but also an NL
> website.  They might help on an NL discussion forum.  They might
> control a NL-specific Twitter account or Facebook page.  They might
> help organize local events related to AOO.  In their country, they are
> "Mr. OpenOffice".  So such a volunteer is cross-functional, but
> focused on activities related to that single language.
>
This type will for sure want to participate on the l10n mailing list and on
country specific pages.

I think for class 1,2 we need active country specific wiki pages, which has
a local part (maintained by themself) and a general part where
development/integrators can write news concerning the process (this could
be l01n.openoffice.org)

>
> 3) Volunteers interested in the general internationalization process
> with the project.  So not just a single language, but end-to-end,
> including the parts that intersect with the programmers and admins.
> They define and support the processes and tools that support the
> localization volunteers.
>
That sounds like me :-)

These need to be fully integrated (excuse my wording), they will eventually
also discuss development themes. I think however if we have documents for
1,2 then 3 would be a lot a question of guidance.

I had a good experience some years ago in another project.  When you had
shown that you were serious (going through your 1,2 and showing good
intentions) you were "connected" with a mentor, who helped answer your
questions and helped you understand the process. That way the person did
not have to send embarrassing questions to the mailing list. Would
something like that work for us ?? (I would for sure like it).


>
> So it might make sense to split this into two "levels" (until I find a
> better word!), one focused on localization.  They don't need to
> understand the tools and SDF files and the messiness that occurs
> behind the scenes.  They just need to know how to get the files to
> translate, how to translate, how to submit the translations, and how
> to get a test build to verify the translation.  So it is a loop of
> translate-test-fix.
>
+1

>
> My group 2 above would benefit from further documentation about
> marketing, about website design, etc.,  but that is best covered by
> those groups.  It is not really a localization question.
>
+1

>
> Group 3 volunteers -- that involves procedures that are not fully
> defined and which require manual intervention.  So I think we'll be
> documenting and improving in parallel.
>
Or use mentors ?

>
> The big question we should ask ourselves is this:  when do we feel
> good enough about our documentation for localization voluntees that we
> can do a broader "call for volunteers" on the website?  If next week
> we had 10 volunteers introduce themselves on the mailing list, for 10
> different languages, could we handle it?  I don't think so, not
> without a great deal of confusion.  So I think we need two basic
> things:


> 1) Accurate, current documentation for volunteers that are focused on
> translating.
>
YES, that  is an issue we need to address AFTER we have the new workflow in
place. Today it would be very hard to do!


>
> 2) A more automated way to process PO files, so we don't drive
> Juergen, our Release Manager, crazy with requests for special
> translation builds.  Maybe if we can get to a steady heart beat of
> snapshot builds (say every week or every two weeks) we can
> automatically include any updated translation in that build?
>
I am happy to tell you, that my proposal will remove all the manual point,
and has a direct coupling between developer and translator (online).

However I already know that it will be a hurdle to get a decision on
it...because it changes a couple of "stones", just to mention one:
I suggest that the only repository is SVN, and pootle gets files directly
from that.

Also in my suggestion is the snapshot build, which needs to be regularly (I
cannot determine if 1 or 2 weeks is correct), that is the latest point
where text would be available to the translators.

My document is hopefully ready monday.

One item is still outstanding, if it was 10 new languages it is totally out
of the scope of my document !

I am working on l10n.openoffice.org, but that will take sometime before I
have a proposal.

>
> > Suggested reading for a tester
> > - How can I help testing ?
> > - Is it possible to test in my native language ?
> > - Which tools do I need ?
> > - How do I report bugs ?
> > - Who do I contact, if I want to be a tester ?
> >
> > Suggested reading for a developer
> > - Where do I find guidance on how to write a source code (naming
> standards
> > etc.) ?
> > - Where do I find build instructions (I found 5 different for
> Ubuntu...the
> > last one was pretty good, but I still had to ask on dev for the last bit
> (a
> > simple flag was wrong))
> > - Where do I find source ?
> > - When do I need to use the sources, and when to use extensions ?
> > - Where do I find the bug reporting system ?
> > - How can I "reserve" a bug for me to solve ?
> >
> >
> > Then of course as you grow more into the community you get more questions
> > (like CMS etc), but I think to cover that would be too much.
>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Information for volunteers

Alexandro Colorado-4
In reply to this post by jan iversen
On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 2:39 PM, jan iversen <[hidden email]>wrote:

> Se below please.
>
> On 20 October 2012 19:21, Alexandro Colorado <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 4:26 PM, jan iversen <[hidden email]
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > You give me a headache and a bad conscience over all the thing I could
> do
> > > but have not (yet) done :-)
> > >
> >
> > Sorry wasnt my intention, I just want to prevent that before throwing
> > everything out and starting from scratch, at least read what was there so
> > we dont need to go through the many gotchas again.
> >
> > I hope you noticed the :-) I just want to get things moving, and I hear
> you say the same thing.
>
> I have no intention of starting from scratch, I have used quite some hours
> researching
> - our sites
> - libreOffice
> - openSource (for the tools used)
> - my old sun knowledge
>
> BUT my document is limited to describe the technical workflow of l10n,
> there are soo many other things which need to be done, as you correctly
> point out later in this mail..I think one step in the right direction is
> better than none.
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > I have put some comments below, in general the list was not only for
> l10n
> > > but in general for new volunteers joining in.
> > >
> > > But to counter my headache, I hope you will be my active reviewer and
> > > committer when my document and l10n web page is ready  ?
> > >
> > > have a nice night.
> > > jan
> > >
> > > On 19 October 2012 21:20, Alexandro Colorado <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 1:41 PM, jan iversen <
> [hidden email]
> > > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > As agreed with Rob, I have put together a list of information, that
> > > would
> > > > > have me problems and time for all those that helped me.
> > > > >
> > > > > This list is just a starting point (all the information is out
> there,
> > > so
> > > > it
> > > > > should just be a list with links)
> > > > >
> > > > > Suggested reading for all volunteers:
> > > > > - Where do I find information (wiki, cwiki, mailing lists) ?
> > >
> > > > - What can I do to help ?
> > >
> > > > - How is the organization (contributor, committer etc....all the way
> > up)
> > > > ?
> > > > > - Who is who ? (It would be good to have a list of the key
> persons) ?
> > > > > - What are our relationship to other openOffice packages (can I use
> > my
> > > > > contribution elsewhere) ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Suggested reading for Wiki contributors
> > > > > - Which writing rules do we have (do I change a page directly or
> use
> > > > talk)
> > > > > - How is the content controlled, basically I can write anything,
> are
> > > > there
> > > > > any QA ?
> > > > > - How is the structure of Wiki ? (and temporary, which parts are
> old
> > > and
> > > > > outdated) ?
> > > > > - Who do I contact if I have problems/questions/need guidance ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Suggested reading for a translator
> > > > > - Where do I find correct information about localization (some wiki
> > > pages
> > > > > are misguiding, and l10n.openoffice.org is NOT a good starting
> > point)
> > > > > - Where can I see status of the ongoing translations ?
> > > > > . Which tools do I need and how do I use them (any standards) ?
> > > > > - Who do I contact to get started ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Suggested reading for a tester
> > > > > - How can I help testing ?
> > > > > - Is it possible to test in my native language ?
> > > > > - Which tools do I need ?
> > > > > - How do I report bugs ?
> > > > > - Who do I contact, if I want to be a tester ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Suggested reading for a developer
> > > > > - Where do I find guidance on how to write a source code (naming
> > > > standards
> > > > > etc.) ?
> > > > > - Where do I find build instructions (I found 5 different for
> > > > Ubuntu...the
> > > > > last one was pretty good, but I still had to ask on dev for the
> last
> > > bit
> > > > (a
> > > > > simple flag was wrong))
> > > > > - Where do I find source ?
> > > > > - When do I need to use the sources, and when to use extensions ?
> > > > > - Where do I find the bug reporting system ?
> > > > > - How can I "reserve" a bug for me to solve ?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Then of course as you grow more into the community you get more
> > > questions
> > > > > (like CMS etc), but I think to cover that would be too much.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > There is a bit of a dilema here, what to know where to point if we
> > still
> > > > not sure what will be there?
> > > >
> > > You are quite right, but that is no excuse for leaving all the old
> > content
> > > untouched and making people like me utterly confused.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > What I mean is that most of the l10n processes are not defined, so at
> > the
> > > > moment the only functional part is the mailing list.
> > > >
> > > I am getting there...I hope my wiki "Localization AOO" was a bit more
> > than
> > > just the mailing list, and I hope to have the new proposal ready no
> later
> > > than monday...l10n web page is a bit more difficult, because I have to
> > find
> > > a way of making it new, without long discussions of what  can go and
> what
> > > should stay (my opinion is quite clear, doing something is better than
> to
> > > sit on your hands).
> > >
> >
> > Start by clasifying old content and links. Probably nobody would oppose
> to
> > put >3.x info as archived content.
> >
> Fine advice, I will do that...right now I am concentrating on index.html to
> get it eye catchy, informative and still with look and feel of
> openoffice.org.
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > No QaSTE, Pootle (still unstable), TCM (gone), Continuousl10n (non
> > > > avialable anymore), Glossaries (gone as well).
> > > >
> > > Hold on, what is QaSte, Continousl10n, I might have been doing
> > consultancy
> > > job for/with Sun but in a different ballgame (Unix for PC).
> > > Glossaries is a main part of my proposal.
> > >
> >
> > Those were applications on Sun/Oracle servers that were tools of the l10n
> > process. Some manuals are in the site some are in the wiki. But the apps
> no
> > longer exist. We should review if these were also donated by oracle, or
> > not, and if we want them back or go for an alternative and replace the
> > process.
> >
> How can I proceed to get the manuals ? I have looked through the sites I
> know of, without finding anything, except TCM which I think sun used for
> the UNIX PC product line.
>

There are within one folder o the content/l10n/localization/ they are a sxw
and odt documents. Quaste might be in /content/qa/qatestool

If you are using tortoisesvn should be easy to locate.


>
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > So what do we have? Pootle has a process of 'only commiters' can
> > provide
> > > or
> > > > QA the localized strings.
> > > >
> > > Just my words!
> > >
> >
> > Do we want to keep it to only commiters? what if the commiter dont speak
> > that language? there is nobody to approve the suggestion?
> >
> NO DEFINITIVELY NO, in my humble opinion...but I did suggest to make an
> "anonymous" user on pootle for offline translators, and that was not meet
> with positive tunes.
>
> I think we have to live that there are committers and contributors, and to
> be honest helped in another project where it was total open and as a
> consequence total unstable.
>

Rob is mentioning something about some user level and access. I think this
will be dictate with the applications that are builted around the project.
I think the main focus sould be on building this ones.


>
> What we need is a clever way that contributors are offered the same
> services, and do not feel it as a burden to go through a committer to get
> the translation accepted. I compare it with a contributor that solves a
> bug, it still need to go through a committer to be integrated in the code.
> iitude
> I have learned quite a lot the last weeks, this project is by far not like
> many other openSource project, alone the size and scale of contributors
> makes it different, and I hope my document will reflect that. BUT I do not
> want to put too high expectations on the document, as written earlier, it
> "simply" changes the technical process, not the atttitude towards people.
>
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > A think tank of a ML.
> > > >
> > > > This makes it somewhat easy... just calling everyone on the l10n
> list,
> > > > however. Localization was a HUGE part of OOo, it worked closely with
> > the
> > > > NLC communities, as well as with QA and Release teams. So it was a
> > hibrid
> > > > of internationalization and engineering. So the process normally was
> a
> > > > mixture of  technical and community minded processes. So is important
> > we
> > > > take this into account in order to have a roadmap, and in order of
> this
> > > > roadmap we should direct the future localization community into that
> > > > direction.
> > > >
> > > I agree totally, Localization seems to be a stepson of AOO, which it
> for
> > > sure isn´t !!! it needs to be an integrated part, which is why I
> started
> > > writing documents.
> > >
> > > Why can´t you or even better we get that going again, I believe a lot
> of
> > > translators/volunteers are out there just waiting to see what happens,
> so
> > > lets make it happen....1+1 can be quite a lot more than 2 !!
> > >
> >
> > We need a call for action on Dev list, reference to the site, present it
> in
> > a manner is clear (your document), just make it easy to read and follow.
> > Lengthy documents are such a ToDo. We need a: Do X, Do Y, Winning!!
> >
> In my document there is a project plan, but it includes only tools etc. not
> how to get in touch with the NLC again.
>

There is no NLC anymore, now international mailing list are just starting
up (which is a good thing) but no centralize piece (except here, maybe) to
get them to exchange information.


>
> I will for sure present the document on this and the dev mailing list, but
> I think we need more than that.
>
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > So we need, engineers, we need localizaers, linguist, applications,
> and
> > > > INFRA and things in that order to properly construct the
> > infrastructure.
> > > >
> > > You am 1 engineer with plenty of spare time (I have stopped working for
> > > money), and there seems to be plenty of volunteers out there who want
> to
> > > help....what we really need is ORGANISATION, and that is where I come
> > from
> > > (having had my own companies for 20+ years), so again lets make this
> > happen
> > > !
> > >
> >
> > Ok I have done some cleanup already on l10n, nothing major just point to
> > the current ML, label some sites as outdated and pointing them back to
> the
> > ML page at incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg. Would probably need help
> > changing all that to the top level domain now.
> >
>
> I am working on it, as of now, I have been through all pages, marking them
> as old or to be kept (in my opinion).
>
> I run it on my personal apache, and once it works as I like, I intent to
> tarball it, and ask you to have a look at it, and then I am not sure what
> is the correct way:
>

I guess is what way of doing it, I preffer the "release fast, release
often, iterate". Than having through go throw a bunch of diff files.


> 1) publish and correct the objections received
> 2) put up on a test site (where?) and wait until there are no more
> objections.
>
> Right now I think there are only very few people who concern them self
> about  the l10n workflow and even less who have an opinion about the site.
> I have however some opinions and time to present them....we NEED BADLY to
> get the NLC community back together, before the forget AOO and drift
> elsewhere.
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Either custom webapps or borrowed applications. An example is what
> > > > LibreOffice did replacing TCM with an application called MozTrap:
> > > > http://vm12.documentfoundation.org/manage/cases/
> > > >
> > > You have a thorough knowledge which I can only hope to gain in the
> years
> > to
> > > come, but I think I have other skills to offer.
> > >
> >
> > There are Quaste and TCM manuals on the site/wiki, please speed read them
> > to make sure u know what this meant.
> >
> If I read it correctly TCM (as I had guessed from SUN) is a predessor to
> Quaste a UI test tool and Quality ensurance tool
>

Yes TCM stand for Test case management, which are  collection of testing
process to go through the application and grade it on a [pass, fail, skip
and comment]. All this for the different versions, architectures.

There is also a Sanity Check which is more automated, this is better
explained on the wiki. Locale communities can wait for dev to release the
milestones after the code freeze or do an internal build before this and
run their own test processes. At the moment we needed some help on making
the flow faster and having "on demand" builds.


>
> I had the impression, that we have automated test tools, that test our UI
> with each release ?? (at least there is a directory with a name that hints
> that functionality). I have just written in my document that these tools
> should be able to run the same tests for language versions.
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Glossaries are now handled on the wiki, which is not optimal as far
> as
> > > > terminology management.
> > > >
> > > That is by far NOT optimal, glossary is of highly value and belongs in
> > SVN
> > > alongside with translations !!
> > >
> >
> > Ok still, need to decide on the best methdology.
> > * Maintaining an ods (binary) would be a pain.
> >
> Yes, My intention was to keep it as a file (.po or .xliff)
>
> > * svn is limited for contributors, we would make it hard for the casual
> > contributor, so what to do?
> >
> We can still make a php script on l10n.openoffice.org that generates a zip
> file ready for download. Upload needs to be committed.
>

> I think the advantages of using SVN are so much higher (think of tracking,
> reviews etc), than only to use a simple filestore, so I would live with the
> fact that is has to go through a committer (just like code changes).
>

I wonder if we can re-tuilize the CMS engine to generate CRUD apps for
this, or should we generate the apps elsewhere. However this will add to
your previous issue about having and mantaining multiple accounts.


>
> * There are some old glossaries on the site for English, Greek, Russian,
> > and Servian on csv already on the l10n/localization/ folder.
> > * Include this in pootle (Libo do this) you can see this for spanish
> >
> If my proposal is accepted I will do this, and I would also like to call
> the community because I know there is f.x. a german glossary as well. The
> danish glossary might have been lost, because of the "border" between LO
> and AOO.
>
> > https://translations.documentfoundation.org/es/
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Other non product related activities like website making it more
> > flexible
> > > > with language. We observed tools like localize.js which help manage
> the
> > > > right locale for users.
> > > > http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Website/Localization#Locale.js
> > > >
> > > > So think JS expertise as well and maybe some HTML5 geolocation
> > > > intelligence.
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > > Alexandro Colorado
> > > > PPMC Apache OpenOffice
> > > > http://es.openoffice.org
> > > >
> > >
> > > To sum it up, I like your comments a LOT, but let join up, build a team
> > and
> > > put actin behind the words. I as contributor and you as committor can
> by
> > > catalysts to get things moving !
> > >
> > > There are 3 big issues outstanding:
> > > - get a more robust l10n workflow in place,
> > > - get the l10n documentation in place,
> > > - get the people involved back together.
> > >
> > > But all it takes is motivation and a couple of people with different
> > skill
> > > sets.
> > >
> > > Sorry for this a bit emotional mail, but after a long day with
> editing, I
> > > cannot help thinking.....we need to be DOING and not just talking.
> > >
> > > have a nice night.
> > > janI.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Alexandro Colorado
> > PPMC Apache OpenOffice
> > http://es.openoffice.org
> >
>
> Have a nice night
> Jan.
>
> Ps. you reference es. may I ask where in spain are you located, I live in
> alora/andalucia ?
>

I am not located in Spain, I am in Cancun, Mexico.

--
Alexandro Colorado
PPMC Apache OpenOffice
http://es.openoffice.org
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Information for volunteers

jan iversen
On 20 October 2012 23:22, Alexandro Colorado <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 2:39 PM, jan iversen <[hidden email]
> >wrote:
>
> > Se below please.
> >
> > On 20 October 2012 19:21, Alexandro Colorado <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 4:26 PM, jan iversen <[hidden email]
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > You give me a headache and a bad conscience over all the thing I
> could
> > do
> > > > but have not (yet) done :-)
> > > >
> > >
> > > Sorry wasnt my intention, I just want to prevent that before throwing
> > > everything out and starting from scratch, at least read what was there
> so
> > > we dont need to go through the many gotchas again.
> > >
> > > I hope you noticed the :-) I just want to get things moving, and I hear
> > you say the same thing.
> >
> > I have no intention of starting from scratch, I have used quite some
> hours
> > researching
> > - our sites
> > - libreOffice
> > - openSource (for the tools used)
> > - my old sun knowledge
> >
> > BUT my document is limited to describe the technical workflow of l10n,
> > there are soo many other things which need to be done, as you correctly
> > point out later in this mail..I think one step in the right direction is
> > better than none.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I have put some comments below, in general the list was not only for
> > l10n
> > > > but in general for new volunteers joining in.
> > > >
> > > > But to counter my headache, I hope you will be my active reviewer and
> > > > committer when my document and l10n web page is ready  ?
> > > >
> > > > have a nice night.
> > > > jan
> > > >
> > > > On 19 October 2012 21:20, Alexandro Colorado <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 1:41 PM, jan iversen <
> > [hidden email]
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > As agreed with Rob, I have put together a list of information,
> that
> > > > would
> > > > > > have me problems and time for all those that helped me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This list is just a starting point (all the information is out
> > there,
> > > > so
> > > > > it
> > > > > > should just be a list with links)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Suggested reading for all volunteers:
> > > > > > - Where do I find information (wiki, cwiki, mailing lists) ?
> > > >
> > > > > - What can I do to help ?
> > > >
> > > > > - How is the organization (contributor, committer etc....all the
> way
> > > up)
> > > > > ?
> > > > > > - Who is who ? (It would be good to have a list of the key
> > persons) ?
> > > > > > - What are our relationship to other openOffice packages (can I
> use
> > > my
> > > > > > contribution elsewhere) ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Suggested reading for Wiki contributors
> > > > > > - Which writing rules do we have (do I change a page directly or
> > use
> > > > > talk)
> > > > > > - How is the content controlled, basically I can write anything,
> > are
> > > > > there
> > > > > > any QA ?
> > > > > > - How is the structure of Wiki ? (and temporary, which parts are
> > old
> > > > and
> > > > > > outdated) ?
> > > > > > - Who do I contact if I have problems/questions/need guidance ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Suggested reading for a translator
> > > > > > - Where do I find correct information about localization (some
> wiki
> > > > pages
> > > > > > are misguiding, and l10n.openoffice.org is NOT a good starting
> > > point)
> > > > > > - Where can I see status of the ongoing translations ?
> > > > > > . Which tools do I need and how do I use them (any standards) ?
> > > > > > - Who do I contact to get started ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Suggested reading for a tester
> > > > > > - How can I help testing ?
> > > > > > - Is it possible to test in my native language ?
> > > > > > - Which tools do I need ?
> > > > > > - How do I report bugs ?
> > > > > > - Who do I contact, if I want to be a tester ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Suggested reading for a developer
> > > > > > - Where do I find guidance on how to write a source code (naming
> > > > > standards
> > > > > > etc.) ?
> > > > > > - Where do I find build instructions (I found 5 different for
> > > > > Ubuntu...the
> > > > > > last one was pretty good, but I still had to ask on dev for the
> > last
> > > > bit
> > > > > (a
> > > > > > simple flag was wrong))
> > > > > > - Where do I find source ?
> > > > > > - When do I need to use the sources, and when to use extensions ?
> > > > > > - Where do I find the bug reporting system ?
> > > > > > - How can I "reserve" a bug for me to solve ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Then of course as you grow more into the community you get more
> > > > questions
> > > > > > (like CMS etc), but I think to cover that would be too much.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > There is a bit of a dilema here, what to know where to point if we
> > > still
> > > > > not sure what will be there?
> > > > >
> > > > You are quite right, but that is no excuse for leaving all the old
> > > content
> > > > untouched and making people like me utterly confused.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > What I mean is that most of the l10n processes are not defined, so
> at
> > > the
> > > > > moment the only functional part is the mailing list.
> > > > >
> > > > I am getting there...I hope my wiki "Localization AOO" was a bit more
> > > than
> > > > just the mailing list, and I hope to have the new proposal ready no
> > later
> > > > than monday...l10n web page is a bit more difficult, because I have
> to
> > > find
> > > > a way of making it new, without long discussions of what  can go and
> > what
> > > > should stay (my opinion is quite clear, doing something is better
> than
> > to
> > > > sit on your hands).
> > > >
> > >
> > > Start by clasifying old content and links. Probably nobody would oppose
> > to
> > > put >3.x info as archived content.
> > >
> > Fine advice, I will do that...right now I am concentrating on index.html
> to
> > get it eye catchy, informative and still with look and feel of
> > openoffice.org.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > No QaSTE, Pootle (still unstable), TCM (gone), Continuousl10n (non
> > > > > avialable anymore), Glossaries (gone as well).
> > > > >
> > > > Hold on, what is QaSte, Continousl10n, I might have been doing
> > > consultancy
> > > > job for/with Sun but in a different ballgame (Unix for PC).
> > > > Glossaries is a main part of my proposal.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Those were applications on Sun/Oracle servers that were tools of the
> l10n
> > > process. Some manuals are in the site some are in the wiki. But the
> apps
> > no
> > > longer exist. We should review if these were also donated by oracle, or
> > > not, and if we want them back or go for an alternative and replace the
> > > process.
> > >
> > How can I proceed to get the manuals ? I have looked through the sites I
> > know of, without finding anything, except TCM which I think sun used for
> > the UNIX PC product line.
> >
>
> There are within one folder o the content/l10n/localization/ they are a sxw
> and odt documents. Quaste might be in /content/qa/qatestool
>
> If you are using tortoisesvn should be easy to locate.
>
got it

>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > So what do we have? Pootle has a process of 'only commiters' can
> > > provide
> > > > or
> > > > > QA the localized strings.
> > > > >
> > > > Just my words!
> > > >
> > >
> > > Do we want to keep it to only commiters? what if the commiter dont
> speak
> > > that language? there is nobody to approve the suggestion?
> > >
> > NO DEFINITIVELY NO, in my humble opinion...but I did suggest to make an
> > "anonymous" user on pootle for offline translators, and that was not meet
> > with positive tunes.
> >
> > I think we have to live that there are committers and contributors, and
> to
> > be honest helped in another project where it was total open and as a
> > consequence total unstable.
> >
>
> Rob is mentioning something about some user level and access. I think this
> will be dictate with the applications that are builted around the project.
> I think the main focus sould be on building this ones.
>
+1

>
>
> >
> > What we need is a clever way that contributors are offered the same
> > services, and do not feel it as a burden to go through a committer to get
> > the translation accepted. I compare it with a contributor that solves a
> > bug, it still need to go through a committer to be integrated in the
> code.
> > iitude
> > I have learned quite a lot the last weeks, this project is by far not
> like
> > many other openSource project, alone the size and scale of contributors
> > makes it different, and I hope my document will reflect that. BUT I do
> not
> > want to put too high expectations on the document, as written earlier, it
> > "simply" changes the technical process, not the atttitude towards people.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > A think tank of a ML.
> > > > >
> > > > > This makes it somewhat easy... just calling everyone on the l10n
> > list,
> > > > > however. Localization was a HUGE part of OOo, it worked closely
> with
> > > the
> > > > > NLC communities, as well as with QA and Release teams. So it was a
> > > hibrid
> > > > > of internationalization and engineering. So the process normally
> was
> > a
> > > > > mixture of  technical and community minded processes. So is
> important
> > > we
> > > > > take this into account in order to have a roadmap, and in order of
> > this
> > > > > roadmap we should direct the future localization community into
> that
> > > > > direction.
> > > > >
> > > > I agree totally, Localization seems to be a stepson of AOO, which it
> > for
> > > > sure isn´t !!! it needs to be an integrated part, which is why I
> > started
> > > > writing documents.
> > > >
> > > > Why can´t you or even better we get that going again, I believe a lot
> > of
> > > > translators/volunteers are out there just waiting to see what
> happens,
> > so
> > > > lets make it happen....1+1 can be quite a lot more than 2 !!
> > > >
> > >
> > > We need a call for action on Dev list, reference to the site, present
> it
> > in
> > > a manner is clear (your document), just make it easy to read and
> follow.
> > > Lengthy documents are such a ToDo. We need a: Do X, Do Y, Winning!!
> > >
> > In my document there is a project plan, but it includes only tools etc.
> not
> > how to get in touch with the NLC again.
> >
>
> There is no NLC anymore, now international mailing list are just starting
> up (which is a good thing) but no centralize piece (except here, maybe) to
> get them to exchange information.
>
I am sure we have at least the skeleton of a central piece in a couple of
weeks time. I am right now more concerned about the approval process for a
new workflow. I have learned from Andrea that a change like that can take
many weeks to decide on, in my opinion we do not have a lot of options.

>
>
> >
> > I will for sure present the document on this and the dev mailing list,
> but
> > I think we need more than that.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > So we need, engineers, we need localizaers, linguist, applications,
> > and
> > > > > INFRA and things in that order to properly construct the
> > > infrastructure.
> > > > >
> > > > You am 1 engineer with plenty of spare time (I have stopped working
> for
> > > > money), and there seems to be plenty of volunteers out there who want
> > to
> > > > help....what we really need is ORGANISATION, and that is where I come
> > > from
> > > > (having had my own companies for 20+ years), so again lets make this
> > > happen
> > > > !
> > > >
> > >
> > > Ok I have done some cleanup already on l10n, nothing major just point
> to
> > > the current ML, label some sites as outdated and pointing them back to
> > the
> > > ML page at incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg. Would probably need
> help
> > > changing all that to the top level domain now.
> > >
> >
> > I am working on it, as of now, I have been through all pages, marking
> them
> > as old or to be kept (in my opinion).
> >
> > I run it on my personal apache, and once it works as I like, I intent to
> > tarball it, and ask you to have a look at it, and then I am not sure what
> > is the correct way:
> >
>
> I guess is what way of doing it, I preffer the "release fast, release
> often, iterate". Than having through go throw a bunch of diff files.
>
Point taken, I will send it page by page.

>
>
> > 1) publish and correct the objections received
> > 2) put up on a test site (where?) and wait until there are no more
> > objections.
> >
> > Right now I think there are only very few people who concern them self
> > about  the l10n workflow and even less who have an opinion about the
> site.
> > I have however some opinions and time to present them....we NEED BADLY to
> > get the NLC community back together, before the forget AOO and drift
> > elsewhere.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Either custom webapps or borrowed applications. An example is what
> > > > > LibreOffice did replacing TCM with an application called MozTrap:
> > > > > http://vm12.documentfoundation.org/manage/cases/
> > > > >
> > > > You have a thorough knowledge which I can only hope to gain in the
> > years
> > > to
> > > > come, but I think I have other skills to offer.
> > > >
> > >
> > > There are Quaste and TCM manuals on the site/wiki, please speed read
> them
> > > to make sure u know what this meant.
> > >
> > If I read it correctly TCM (as I had guessed from SUN) is a predessor to
> > Quaste a UI test tool and Quality ensurance tool
> >
>
> Yes TCM stand for Test case management, which are  collection of testing
> process to go through the application and grade it on a [pass, fail, skip
> and comment]. All this for the different versions, architectures.
>
> There is also a Sanity Check which is more automated, this is better
> explained on the wiki. Locale communities can wait for dev to release the
> milestones after the code freeze or do an internal build before this and
> run their own test processes. At the moment we needed some help on making
> the flow faster and having "on demand" builds.
>
In my proposal I have an automated generation of language files (.po or
.xliff), so if a person runs "build --all", all language files will be
ready for translation, I cannot to that easier.


>
>
> >
> > I had the impression, that we have automated test tools, that test our UI
> > with each release ?? (at least there is a directory with a name that
> hints
> > that functionality). I have just written in my document that these tools
> > should be able to run the same tests for language versions.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Glossaries are now handled on the wiki, which is not optimal as far
> > as
> > > > > terminology management.
> > > > >
> > > > That is by far NOT optimal, glossary is of highly value and belongs
> in
> > > SVN
> > > > alongside with translations !!
> > > >
> > >
> > > Ok still, need to decide on the best methdology.
> > > * Maintaining an ods (binary) would be a pain.
> > >
> > Yes, My intention was to keep it as a file (.po or .xliff)
> >
> > > * svn is limited for contributors, we would make it hard for the casual
> > > contributor, so what to do?
> > >
> > We can still make a php script on l10n.openoffice.org that generates a
> zip
> > file ready for download. Upload needs to be committed.
> >
>
> > I think the advantages of using SVN are so much higher (think of
> tracking,
> > reviews etc), than only to use a simple filestore, so I would live with
> the
> > fact that is has to go through a committer (just like code changes).
> >
>
> I wonder if we can re-tuilize the CMS engine to generate CRUD apps for
> this, or should we generate the apps elsewhere. However this will add to
> your previous issue about having and mantaining multiple accounts.
>
You have a point...we could also use wiki, if we could get a php script
triggered we are home safe. That way offline translators could "submit" the
translation as an upload to a web page or wiki, and the script would either
hold the file in a staging area waiting for a committer to commit it, or
(which I prefer) autocommit it with a special user.

>
>
> >
> > * There are some old glossaries on the site for English, Greek, Russian,
> > > and Servian on csv already on the l10n/localization/ folder.
> > > * Include this in pootle (Libo do this) you can see this for spanish
> > >
> > If my proposal is accepted I will do this, and I would also like to call
> > the community because I know there is f.x. a german glossary as well. The
> > danish glossary might have been lost, because of the "border" between LO
> > and AOO.
> >
> > > https://translations.documentfoundation.org/es/
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Other non product related activities like website making it more
> > > flexible
> > > > > with language. We observed tools like localize.js which help manage
> > the
> > > > > right locale for users.
> > > > > http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Website/Localization#Locale.js
> > > > >
> > > > > So think JS expertise as well and maybe some HTML5 geolocation
> > > > > intelligence.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > > Alexandro Colorado
> > > > > PPMC Apache OpenOffice
> > > > > http://es.openoffice.org
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > To sum it up, I like your comments a LOT, but let join up, build a
> team
> > > and
> > > > put actin behind the words. I as contributor and you as committor can
> > by
> > > > catalysts to get things moving !
> > > >
> > > > There are 3 big issues outstanding:
> > > > - get a more robust l10n workflow in place,
> > > > - get the l10n documentation in place,
> > > > - get the people involved back together.
> > > >
> > > > But all it takes is motivation and a couple of people with different
> > > skill
> > > > sets.
> > > >
> > > > Sorry for this a bit emotional mail, but after a long day with
> > editing, I
> > > > cannot help thinking.....we need to be DOING and not just talking.
> > > >
> > > > have a nice night.
> > > > janI.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Alexandro Colorado
> > > PPMC Apache OpenOffice
> > > http://es.openoffice.org
> > >
> >
> > Have a nice night
> > Jan.
> >
> > Ps. you reference es. may I ask where in spain are you located, I live in
> > alora/andalucia ?
> >
>
> I am not located in Spain, I am in Cancun, Mexico.
>
Nice place, I had a project long time ago at the border to belize, which I
think is relatively close.

>
> --
> Alexandro Colorado
> PPMC Apache OpenOffice
> http://es.openoffice.org
>