My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was: What we should do now)

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My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was: What we should do now)

Jörg Schmidt-2
Hello,

I have described the current problematic situation regarding Big Sur and explained why it is important to inform our users quickly and that there is no time to wait for a new program release.

I opened a thread about "lazy consensus" and made concrete text suggestions for the release notes. I respected that these suggestions were contradicted by one individual.

I then opened a thread to solve the same problem by "consensus building" and agreed to Peter's suggestion for a blog post (because I found this suggestion even better than my suggestion with the Release Notes).

Although it was clear to everyone here that the issue needs a quick solution, and although there were many discussion posts and a lot of hard work in revising the blogpost, nothing relevant has happened yet.
I find it absolutely disappointing the amount of work that has been put into perfecting the blogpost, without it now benefiting the users by finally being published.



I announce that if nothing has happened by 03 January 2021 18:00 (CET), I will then make the addition to the release notes myself, according to my original proposal.


greetings,
Jörg



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Re: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was: What we should do now)

Peter Kovacs-3
Hello Jörg,

This is not how things are done. I read your mail as blackmail and toxic. Just don't do such stuff. Actions like this puts the feeling on myself that I should do something, because otherwise something 'wrong' will happen. I would rather let you edit the page instead of giving you the power to command what I do. One can be fixed the other is much harder to fix.
Your threat is not ment as this I am sure, but this is the message you provide.
Have you concidered that there are reasons why the block post has not been posted to announcement?
So I do not understand your mail. We have a draft, which is at 90% ready. Maybe 100%. That needs to be clarified. You have helped the announcement to be made. So it is not correct that nothing had happened.
Maybe it was not to your expectations, but we did act on a conscent plan.

So I will not post the announcement until 3rd Jan, due to Jörgs demands. If someone else does it it is fine for me.

All the best
peter


Am 31. Dezember 2020 11:06:37 MEZ schrieb "Jörg Schmidt" <[hidden email]>:

>Hello,
>
>I have described the current problematic situation regarding Big Sur
>and explained why it is important to inform our users quickly and that
>there is no time to wait for a new program release.
>
>I opened a thread about "lazy consensus" and made concrete text
>suggestions for the release notes. I respected that these suggestions
>were contradicted by one individual.
>
>I then opened a thread to solve the same problem by "consensus
>building" and agreed to Peter's suggestion for a blog post (because I
>found this suggestion even better than my suggestion with the Release
>Notes).
>
>Although it was clear to everyone here that the issue needs a quick
>solution, and although there were many discussion posts and a lot of
>hard work in revising the blogpost, nothing relevant has happened yet.
>I find it absolutely disappointing the amount of work that has been put
>into perfecting the blogpost, without it now benefiting the users by
>finally being published.
>
>
>
>I announce that if nothing has happened by 03 January 2021 18:00 (CET),
>I will then make the addition to the release notes myself, according to
>my original proposal.
>
>
>greetings,
>Jörg
>
>
>
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Re: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was: What we should do now)

Marcus (OOo)
Am 31.12.20 um 11:50 schrieb Peter Kovacs:
> This is not how things are done. I read your mail as blackmail and toxic. Just don't do such stuff. Actions like this puts the feeling on myself that I should do something, because otherwise something 'wrong' will happen. I would rather let you edit the page instead of giving you the power to command what I do. One can be fixed the other is much harder to fix.
> Your threat is not ment as this I am sure, but this is the message you provide.

100% ACK

> Have you concidered that there are reasons why the block post has not been posted to announcement?
> So I do not understand your mail. We have a draft, which is at 90% ready. Maybe 100%. That needs to be clarified. You have helped the announcement to be made. So it is not correct that nothing had happened.
> Maybe it was not to your expectations, but we did act on a conscent plan.
>
> So I will not post the announcement until 3rd Jan, due to Jörgs demands. If someone else does it it is fine for me.

Maybe I've not every information about the problem and how the users are
affected. But I don't feel that something is really burning, so we need
to put it out immideatelly.

At the moment Christmas is over and the year end is near. At least for
me no normal days were I can do everything in every minute.

Please understand that the things take some (more ?) time in these days.

Thanks

Marcus



> Am 31. Dezember 2020 11:06:37 MEZ schrieb "Jörg Schmidt" <[hidden email]>:
>> I have described the current problematic situation regarding Big Sur
>> and explained why it is important to inform our users quickly and that
>> there is no time to wait for a new program release.
>>
>> I opened a thread about "lazy consensus" and made concrete text
>> suggestions for the release notes. I respected that these suggestions
>> were contradicted by one individual.
>>
>> I then opened a thread to solve the same problem by "consensus
>> building" and agreed to Peter's suggestion for a blog post (because I
>> found this suggestion even better than my suggestion with the Release
>> Notes).
>>
>> Although it was clear to everyone here that the issue needs a quick
>> solution, and although there were many discussion posts and a lot of
>> hard work in revising the blogpost, nothing relevant has happened yet.
>> I find it absolutely disappointing the amount of work that has been put
>> into perfecting the blogpost, without it now benefiting the users by
>> finally being published.
>>
>>
>>
>> I announce that if nothing has happened by 03 January 2021 18:00 (CET),
>> I will then make the addition to the release notes myself, according to
>> my original proposal.


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RE: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was: What we should do now)

Jörg Schmidt-2
In reply to this post by Peter Kovacs-3
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:51 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was:
> What we should do now)
>
> Hello Jörg,
>
> This is not how things are done. I read your mail as
> blackmail and toxic.

Then you are reading my email completly wrong, because it follows the exact opposite path.

I have meticulously adhered to the applicable rules, even in a situation where Mathias, for example, found it rather annoying - because it seemed obvious to me that the reaction of Mathias to the objection of "Bidouille" also wanted to express that this objection actually has no substance.


WHAT I currently announce is no further than what anyone here, even without announcement of anytime can do and does, because I have never experienced that someone asks before when editing the release notes (even _after_ the release) and also I know no rule so requires something.


> I therefore sincerely ask you to refrain from your personal
> attacks and not to accuse me of things that are simply not true.

You are now announcing something deliberately delayed to the detriment of users because my opinion annoys you?


Jörg


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Re: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was: What we should do now)

Marcus (OOo)
Am 31.12.20 um 12:30 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:51 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was:
>> What we should do now)
>>
>> This is not how things are done. I read your mail as
>> blackmail and toxic.
>
> Then you are reading my email completly wrong, because it follows the exact opposite path.
>
> I have meticulously adhered to the applicable rules, even in a situation where Mathias, for example, found it rather annoying - because it seemed obvious to me that the reaction of Mathias to the objection of "Bidouille" also wanted to express that this objection actually has no substance.
>
>
> WHAT I currently announce is no further than what anyone here, even without announcement of anytime can do and does, because I have never experienced that someone asks before when editing the release notes (even _after_ the release) and also I know no rule so requires something.

correcting typos or adding new translations has no a big impact as your
addition would have.

Marcus


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RE: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was: What we should do now)

Jörg Schmidt-2
In reply to this post by Marcus (OOo)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcus [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 12:00 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was:
> What we should do now)
>
> Am 31.12.20 um 11:50 schrieb Peter Kovacs:
> > This is not how things are done. I read your mail as
> blackmail and toxic. Just don't do such stuff. Actions like
> this puts the feeling on myself that I should do something,
> because otherwise something 'wrong' will happen. I would
> rather let you edit the page instead of giving you the power
> to command what I do. One can be fixed the other is much
> harder to fix.
> > Your threat is not ment as this I am sure, but this is the
> message you provide.
>
> 100% ACK
>
> > Have you concidered that there are reasons why the block
> post has not been posted to announcement?
> > So I do not understand your mail. We have a draft, which is
> at 90% ready. Maybe 100%. That needs to be clarified. You
> have helped the announcement to be made. So it is not correct
> that nothing had happened.
> > Maybe it was not to your expectations, but we did act on a
> conscent plan.
> >
> > So I will not post the announcement until 3rd Jan, due to
> Jörgs demands. If someone else does it it is fine for me.
>
> Maybe I've not every information about the problem and how
> the users are
> affected. But I don't feel that something is really burning,
> so we need
> to put it out immideatelly.

You certainly don't have all the information.

and I would like to add:
I find it disappointing, once again, to feel how we in the community do not manage to respect each other's strengths (and weaknesses) and thus also to trust the statements of others without reservation, in situations where the others know more than you do.

I, for example, trust the statements of programmers on topics such as C++ or Git, because I myself know little about it and am also convinced that no one would intentionally claim untrue things.

But if it comes to volunteer community support for OO, I personally work on it since 2005 continuously every week 15-20 hours and have a huge wealth of experience. Part of this experience is to be able to reliably judge which user questions are relevant for the whole and which are only individual.
But why is it pretended here that this knowledge is not worth anything? Why do the programmers want to have the last word here as well?

> Please understand that the things take some (more ?) time in
> these days.

Understanding would be promoted by clarity, not by insulting insinuations like Peter wrote here.



Jörg



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RE: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was: What we should do now)

Jörg Schmidt-2
In reply to this post by Marcus (OOo)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcus [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 12:36 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was:
> What we should do now)
>
> Am 31.12.20 um 12:30 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:[hidden email]]
> >> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 11:51 AM
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was:
> >> What we should do now)
> >>
> >> This is not how things are done. I read your mail as
> >> blackmail and toxic.
> >
> > Then you are reading my email completly wrong, because it
> follows the exact opposite path.
> >
> > I have meticulously adhered to the applicable rules, even
> in a situation where Mathias, for example, found it rather
> annoying - because it seemed obvious to me that the reaction
> of Mathias to the objection of "Bidouille" also wanted to
> express that this objection actually has no substance.
> >
> >
> > WHAT I currently announce is no further than what anyone
> here, even without announcement of anytime can do and does,
> because I have never experienced that someone asks before
> when editing the release notes (even _after_ the release) and
> also I know no rule so requires something.
>
> correcting typos or adding new translations has no a big
> impact as your
> addition would have.

I consider this statement objectively inaccurate and arbitrary.

I repeat that I have complied with the applicable rules and do absolutely nothing or demand what I would not have the right.



Jörg


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RE: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was: What we should do now)

Jörg Schmidt-2
In reply to this post by Marcus (OOo)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcus [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 12:00 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was:
> What we should do now)

> At the moment Christmas is over and the year end is near. At
> least for
> me no normal days were I can do everything in every minute.
>
> Please understand that the things take some (more ?) time in
> these days.


Alright, I will take this situation into account and hold off editing the release notes for a few days.


I would be grateful if you would reconsider your position to say that, with otherwise usual changes to the release notes, it is only "correcting typos or adding new translations", because that is untrue.



Jörg


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Re: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was: What we should do now)

Jim Jagielski
In reply to this post by Jörg Schmidt-2


> On Dec 31, 2020, at 5:06 AM, Jörg Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Although it was clear to everyone here that the issue needs a quick solution, and although there were many discussion posts and a lot of hard work in revising the blogpost, nothing relevant has happened yet.

Are you crazy? Did you not see that I tracked down the cause, and that we have a set of 4.1.9 Developer test builds available for people to down and test? But instead of acknowledging the amount of work done fixing the *root cause*, during what many consider a holiday break, you are instead bitching and moaning about not getting a blog out as per *your* schedule.

"Nothing relevant"?

Please do not resort to threats, especially when they are based on false reality.
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RE: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was: What we should do now)

Jörg Schmidt-2
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Jagielski [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 3:19 PM
> To: dev
> Subject: Re: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was:
> What we should do now)
>
>
>
> > On Dec 31, 2020, at 5:06 AM, Jörg Schmidt
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Although it was clear to everyone here that the issue needs
> a quick solution, and although there were many discussion
> posts and a lot of hard work in revising the blogpost,
> nothing relevant has happened yet.
>
> Are you crazy? Did you not see that I tracked down the cause,
> and that we have a set of 4.1.9 Developer test builds
> available for people to down and test? But instead of
> acknowledging the amount of work done fixing the *root
> cause*, during what many consider a holiday break, you are
> instead bitching and moaning about not getting a blog out as
> per *your* schedule.

No, I am not crazy. And I had, here in the concrete,. expressly appreciative words for the work done expressed. (what I do not always)

At the same time it is not so that you and those who are of your opinion, automatically right, because there are now once 2 possibilities:
 
either:
-we quickly publish an information for the users and work in parallel to fix the bug

or:
-we focus only on one patch (and inform only when we release the final patch)

(I'm talking about "patch", but if there will be a 4.1.9, I mean this one)


The "either" was, here in concrete, not automatically controversial, because e.g. Peter recognized the importance of an information and reacted very fast by writing a draft.

Why are you trying to tell me that you are right (because you prioritize the patch) and I am wrong (because I prioritize the information for the users), _when in fact we only have different opinions about what has more priority_?

> "Nothing relevant"?

Sorry if this is unclear, I meant of course that the users are confronted with the faulty function of AOO without having any information, so also no information that tells them that we have long been working on the elimination of the error.

Exactly this information to give publicly as soon as possible, I would have found important.

> Please do not resort to threats, especially when they are
> based on false reality.

I didn't threaten anyone, I announced something I didn't even have to announce, because there is no rule that forbids me as a committer to make changes in the wiki.

Let me also argue clearly at this point: I am always ready to accept criticism when I break rules, but other opinions are not rules, they are just opinions.
By the way: anyone could have disagreed with me in the thread I clearly marked "Consensus Building" (that would have been in accordance with the rules) but no one did.  



Jörg


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Re: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was: What we should do now)

Dave Fisher-2
Please stop calling 4.1.9 a patch. It is a release which has fixes including the one for the BigSur issue. We are following the same process we did for 4.1.8 which was released less than two months ago. That release took about a month to work through all issues in the RCs.

This community effort to do a release shortly after the prior is an impressive accomplishment for the project. Consider that we have released about a year or two apart the last several years.

The proposed language for the blog post exists on the cwiki. Have you looked at it? Simon had a good idea for SEO to include the error message text. We should add that.

I think that there is consensus to publish the blog post by Monday.

After that it will be time to start preparing 4.1.9 release notes.

Have you informed your users about Jim’s test build? Testing sooner allows releasing sooner.

Regards,
Dave

PS. There have been lots of emails ... let’s slow that and ALL be constructive.

PPS. Most all of us are volunteers. Let’s keep things fun and positive.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 31, 2020, at 10:54 AM, Jörg Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jim Jagielski [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 3:19 PM
>> To: dev
>> Subject: Re: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was:
>> What we should do now)
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 31, 2020, at 5:06 AM, Jörg Schmidt
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Although it was clear to everyone here that the issue needs
>> a quick solution, and although there were many discussion
>> posts and a lot of hard work in revising the blogpost,
>> nothing relevant has happened yet.
>>
>> Are you crazy? Did you not see that I tracked down the cause,
>> and that we have a set of 4.1.9 Developer test builds
>> available for people to down and test? But instead of
>> acknowledging the amount of work done fixing the *root
>> cause*, during what many consider a holiday break, you are
>> instead bitching and moaning about not getting a blog out as
>> per *your* schedule.
>
> No, I am not crazy. And I had, here in the concrete,. expressly appreciative words for the work done expressed. (what I do not always)
>
> At the same time it is not so that you and those who are of your opinion, automatically right, because there are now once 2 possibilities:
>
> either:
> -we quickly publish an information for the users and work in parallel to fix the bug
>
> or:
> -we focus only on one patch (and inform only when we release the final patch)
>
> (I'm talking about "patch", but if there will be a 4.1.9, I mean this one)
>
>
> The "either" was, here in concrete, not automatically controversial, because e.g. Peter recognized the importance of an information and reacted very fast by writing a draft.
>
> Why are you trying to tell me that you are right (because you prioritize the patch) and I am wrong (because I prioritize the information for the users), _when in fact we only have different opinions about what has more priority_?
>
>> "Nothing relevant"?
>
> Sorry if this is unclear, I meant of course that the users are confronted with the faulty function of AOO without having any information, so also no information that tells them that we have long been working on the elimination of the error.
>
> Exactly this information to give publicly as soon as possible, I would have found important.
>
>> Please do not resort to threats, especially when they are
>> based on false reality.
>
> I didn't threaten anyone, I announced something I didn't even have to announce, because there is no rule that forbids me as a committer to make changes in the wiki.
>
> Let me also argue clearly at this point: I am always ready to accept criticism when I break rules, but other opinions are not rules, they are just opinions.
> By the way: anyone could have disagreed with me in the thread I clearly marked "Consensus Building" (that would have been in accordance with the rules) but no one did.  
>
>
>
> Jörg
>
>
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RE: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was: What we should do now)

Jörg Schmidt-2
Hello,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Fisher [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2020 8:17 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: My last advance notice regarding Big Sur (was:
> What we should do now)
>
> Please stop calling 4.1.9 a patch.

Yes, all right

> It is a release which has
> fixes including the one for the BigSur issue. We are
> following the same process we did for 4.1.8 which was
> released less than two months ago. That release took about a
> month to work through all issues in the RCs.

> This community effort to do a release shortly after the prior
> is an impressive accomplishment for the project. Consider
> that we have released about a year or two apart the last
> several years.

I think that eliminating one's own mistakes is a matter of course that does not need many words.

> The proposed language for the blog post exists on the cwiki.
> Have you looked at it?

Of course I took a look at it, because I was thrilled by Peter's quick response to my inquiry.

> I think that there is consensus to publish the blog post by Monday.

That would have been nice, but again nothing happened. Or am I overlooking the publication of the blog post?

In any case, there is already a new request from an affected user in our forum?
How long do we want to leave our users without information?


>
> After that it will be time to start preparing 4.1.9 release notes.
>
> Have you informed your users about Jim’s test build? Testing
> sooner allows releasing sooner.

I didn't do that after Peter accused me of writing "toxic mail" and I had to fear that any unauthorized publication of information would be interpreted negatively.

I will make up for it immediately, trusting that this will not be interpreted negagtiv.



gretings,
Jörg


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