New Committer: Detlef Nannen

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New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Marcus (OOo)
The Apache OpenOffice project is happy to have a new committer on board:

Detlef Nannen

Please give him a warm welcome.

Marcus
(on behalf of the Apache OpenOffice PMC)


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Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Matthias Seidel
Welcome Detlef,

In July I will work on our OpenOffice flyer again, stay tuned! ;-)

Regards,

   Matthias

Am 01.07.20 um 00:10 schrieb Marcus:

> The Apache OpenOffice project is happy to have a new committer on board:
>
> Detlef Nannen
>
> Please give him a warm welcome.
>
> Marcus
> (on behalf of the Apache OpenOffice PMC)
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
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RE: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Jörg Schmidt-2
In reply to this post by Marcus (OOo)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcus [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2020 12:10 AM
> To: dev@
> Cc: Detlef Nannen
> Subject: New Committer: Detlef Nannen
>
> The Apache OpenOffice project is happy to have a new
> committer on board:
>
> Detlef Nannen
>
> Please give him a warm welcome.
>
> Marcus
> (on behalf of the Apache OpenOffice PMC)

May I ask on whose authority and for what reason?

In particular, I note that there were other people involved in the flyers who obviously didn't get committer status for that?

Why is the committer status not offered to all people involved in the flyer? Why are past performance and the intention for future performance not equally recognised?



Jörg


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Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Peter Kovacs-3
In reply to this post by Marcus (OOo)
Hi Detlef,

Welcome as a committer on the Apache OpenOffice project.

I hope you are fine that I added your name at the cwiki to mark you as
an involved volunteer.


I think it is a good thing that we have you maintaining the flyers. You
did it in the past with a lot of dedication, and shown activity on our
Lists. I hope you stay that way and work with the booth team in order we
have something  to present to people in future.


All the Best

Peter

Am 01.07.20 um 00:10 schrieb Marcus:

> The Apache OpenOffice project is happy to have a new committer on board:
>
> Detlef Nannen
>
> Please give him a warm welcome.
>
> Marcus
> (on behalf of the Apache OpenOffice PMC)
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>


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RE: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Jörg Schmidt-2
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2020 1:56 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen
>
> Hi Detlef,
>
> Welcome as a committer on the Apache OpenOffice project.
>
> I hope you are fine that I added your name at the cwiki to
> mark you as
> an involved volunteer.
>
>
> I think it is a good thing that we have you maintaining the
> flyers. You
> did it in the past with a lot of dedication, and shown
> activity on our
> Lists. I hope you stay that way and work with the booth team
> in order we
> have something  to present to people in future.

Flyer design and booth management, another active member of the German AOO community has also done so in the past.
Why isn't the committer offered to him as well?

Or was he offered the committer and he turned it down?


Jörg


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Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Dr. Michael Stehmann-2
In reply to this post by Jörg Schmidt-2


Hi Jörg,

that is in general no secret and well known:

The PMC of an Apache project closely monitors the contributions of
individuals. When a PMC member nominates an individual, it is usefull
the member talks to other members before the nomination. The committee
votes to decide whether the contributions of the individual qualify for
committer-ship. Often there is a large consensus about this question.

Than the individuals is asked, whether (s)he wants to become a
committer. If the persons says yes, there is some legal and technical
formalities and in the end (s)he will be presented and welcomed as a new
committer.

It is in essence the same way as in your case.

Kind regards
Michael




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RE: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Jörg Schmidt-2
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2020 2:35 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen
>
>
>
> Hi Jörg,
>
> that is in general no secret and well known:
>
> The PMC of an Apache project closely monitors the contributions of
> individuals. When a PMC member nominates an individual, it is usefull
> the member talks to other members before the nomination. The committee
> votes to decide whether the contributions of the individual
> qualify for
> committer-ship. Often there is a large consensus about this question.
>
> Than the individuals is asked, whether (s)he wants to become a
> committer. If the persons says yes, there is some legal and technical
> formalities and in the end (s)he will be presented and
> welcomed as a new
> committer.
>
> It is in essence the same way as in your case.

Power, including the PMC, should be used responsibly. Personal sympathies are not a good signpost; performance alone should count.

These things are also a very simple question of the sense of justice and where performance is no longer judged fairly, our project AOO suffers.

And there should be no doubt:
Detlef undoubtedly deserves to be a committer, only others have that to the same degree. And whoever apparently excludes these others from it(*), makes his opinion clear.


(*)
Or were others also asked and refused?
(I had already asked Peter this question.)


Jörg



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Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Dr. Michael Stehmann-2


Am 01.07.20 um 15:06 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
> Power, including the PMC, should be used responsibly.

That is evidently true.

 Personal sympathies are not a good signpost; performance alone should
count.

If you want to build a team, performance is not the only thing that
counts. But I do not see the problem n practice. I do not know anybody,
who has personal aversions in this case.

>
> These things are also a very simple question of the sense of justice and where performance is no longer judged fairly, our project AOO suffers.

If the imputation would be true, you would be right. But it is not.
>
> And there should be no doubt:
> Detlef undoubtedly deserves to be a committer, only others have that to the same degree. And whoever apparently excludes these others from it(*), makes his opinion clear.

Is this your opinion or the opinion of Detlef?

You are obviously in error about the treatment:

First there is a nomination by a PMC member..

Than there is a decision of the PMC.

An after that the individual is asked, whether (s)he wants to become a
committer.

By the way: the policy of the PMC is to include better more then less
people into the project.

Kind regards
Michael


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Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Dr. Michael Stehmann-2


Am 01.07.20 um 16:08 schrieb Dr. Michael Stehmann:

> Is this your opinion or the opinion of Detlef?

This was a mistake: The right question is:

Is this your opinion or the opinion of Jan-Christian?

Or are there more people involved in producing the flyers?

Excuse my mistake.

Kind regards
Michael



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RE: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Jörg Schmidt-2
In reply to this post by Dr. Michael Stehmann-2
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2020 4:08 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen
>
>
>
> Am 01.07.20 um 15:06 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
> > Power, including the PMC, should be used responsibly.
>
> That is evidently true.
>
>  Personal sympathies are not a good signpost; performance alone should
> count.
>
> If you want to build a team, performance is not the only thing that
> counts. But I do not see the problem n practice. I do not
> know anybody,
> who has personal aversions in this case.

Then you didn't read Mathias' statement on de-dev (or was it de-users?) about his aversions to me.

I found it symptomatic that remained unchallenged as Mathias expressed himself there.
And as you rightly say, it's not only about performance, but also about other things, such as trust and, for example, that we (at the PMC) are led by people for whom the success of the project is more important than personal matters.

> If the imputation would be true, you would be right. But it is not.

it is right in some cases.
I gave you some examples on de-dev that you didn't go into

> > And there should be no doubt:
> > Detlef undoubtedly deserves to be a committer, only others
> have that to the same degree. And whoever apparently excludes
> these others from it(*), makes his opinion clear.
>
> Is this your opinion or the opinion of Detlef?

It's the decision of those people at PMC. (At least that's what I meant.)

> You are obviously in error about the treatment:
>
> First there is a nomination by a PMC member..
>
> Than there is a decision of the PMC.
>
> An after that the individual is asked, whether (s)he wants to become a
> committer.
>
> By the way: the policy of the PMC is to include better more then less
> people into the project.

I think that's not entirely true and I had already said on de-dev why.



Jörg


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RE: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Jörg Schmidt-2
In reply to this post by Dr. Michael Stehmann-2
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2020 4:18 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen
>
>
>
> Am 01.07.20 um 16:08 schrieb Dr. Michael Stehmann:
>
> > Is this your opinion or the opinion of Detlef?
>
> This was a mistake: The right question is:
>
> Is this your opinion or the opinion of Jan-Christian?

STOP!
I'm only speaking specifically in person here. Try not to doubt that!

(In fact, I haven't had the chance to talk to Jan at all, because I've only known about the development for a few hours)

> Or are there more people involved in producing the flyers?

Isn't it enough to treat one unjustly?



Jörg


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Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Dave Fisher-2


> On Jul 1, 2020, at 7:58 AM, Jörg Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2020 4:18 PM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 01.07.20 um 16:08 schrieb Dr. Michael Stehmann:
>>
>>> Is this your opinion or the opinion of Detlef?
>>
>> This was a mistake: The right question is:
>>
>> Is this your opinion or the opinion of Jan-Christian?
>
> STOP!
> I'm only speaking specifically in person here. Try not to doubt that!
>
> (In fact, I haven't had the chance to talk to Jan at all, because I've only known about the development for a few hours)
>
>> Or are there more people involved in producing the flyers?
>
> Isn't it enough to treat one unjustly?

Why is our announcing new Committers a problem of justice? It should be celebrated. You should stop these accusations. If there are people that you feel the PMC has missed then please send an email to private@openoffice and let the PMC know. The project is vast and we can’t see everything as we are all volunteers.

Many of us are NOT on the dev-de@openoffice mailing list and don’t spend any time there. If there have been personal attacks on the -de lists then please let the PMC know at private@openoffice so that it can be looked into. Personal attacks are not OK.

Regards,
Dave

>
>
>
> Jörg
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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RE: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Jörg Schmidt-2
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Fisher [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2020 5:13 PM
> To: dev
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen
>
>
>
> > On Jul 1, 2020, at 7:58 AM, Jörg Schmidt
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann
> [mailto:[hidden email]]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2020 4:18 PM
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Am 01.07.20 um 16:08 schrieb Dr. Michael Stehmann:
> >>
> >>> Is this your opinion or the opinion of Detlef?
> >>
> >> This was a mistake: The right question is:
> >>
> >> Is this your opinion or the opinion of Jan-Christian?
> >
> > STOP!
> > I'm only speaking specifically in person here. Try not to
> doubt that!
> >
> > (In fact, I haven't had the chance to talk to Jan at all,
> because I've only known about the development for a few hours)
> >
> >> Or are there more people involved in producing the flyers?
> >
> > Isn't it enough to treat one unjustly?
>
> Why is our announcing new Committers a problem of justice?

Because others who have done the SAME job are denied being committers because they are not even asked.

> It
> should be celebrated. You should stop these accusations.

I'm sorry, but I will not stand by silently and watch our project become a gentlemen's club, where everyone is sworn to an opinion and whoever dares to express his own opinion is treated as an Troublemaker.

Why do I say that? Because it is not enough for me to do only simple work here and to have to keep silent about important things. Of course I am here to make AOO better, but I am also here to help shape FOSS policy.

Is that presumptuous? Well, I've been volunteering for OpenOffice (first OOo now AOO) for 15 years, if that doesn't count what then?

Unfortunately, I had to learn what counts, e.g. accepting employees of IBM into the PMC and pretending that it is personal achievement (in the sense of voluntary work) to do what you are paid for professionally.
Well, maybe that was helpful, but is it fair to give one person something with a light hand that you withhold from the other just because you don't like her opinion in some things?

> If
> there are people that you feel the PMC has missed then please
> send an email to private@openoffice and let the PMC know.

No, thank you. I'm not gonna pretend that everything is okay here when in truth it's not.

I have had little confidence in the PMC(*) since I experienced the reaction of the PMC to a critical request (on private@openoffice) from me.

(*)
Let me be more specific: I have little trust in those who are currently have a decisive influence on its activities, because there are also members of the PMC whose performance I regard with great respect and many members whom I have never got to know concretely.

> Many of us are NOT on the dev-de@openoffice mailing list and
> don’t spend any time there. If there have been personal
> attacks on the -de lists then please let the PMC know at
> private@openoffice so that it can be looked into. Personal
> attacks are not OK.

I had a dispute with a PMC member on the mailing list. Do you really think it is helpful to complain to the PMC about being verbally attacked by a PMC member?


greetings,
Jörg




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Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Patricia Shanahan
In reply to this post by Jörg Schmidt-2
On 7/1/2020 6:06 AM, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
...
> And there should be no doubt:
> Detlef undoubtedly deserves to be a committer, only others have that to the same degree. And whoever apparently excludes these others from it(*), makes his opinion clear.

This is intended for all AOO participants, not just Jörg. If you know of
anyone you think should be a committer and is not please send an e-mail
to [hidden email] giving their name and the reasons why
they should be a committer.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


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Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Marcus (OOo)
In reply to this post by Jörg Schmidt-2
Am 01.07.20 um 18:13 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dave Fisher [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2020 5:13 PM
>> To: dev
>> Cc: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 1, 2020, at 7:58 AM, Jörg Schmidt
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann
>> [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2020 4:18 PM
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Subject: Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 01.07.20 um 16:08 schrieb Dr. Michael Stehmann:
>>>>
>>>>> Is this your opinion or the opinion of Detlef?
>>>>
>>>> This was a mistake: The right question is:
>>>>
>>>> Is this your opinion or the opinion of Jan-Christian?
>>>
>>> STOP!
>>> I'm only speaking specifically in person here. Try not to
>> doubt that!
>>>
>>> (In fact, I haven't had the chance to talk to Jan at all,
>> because I've only known about the development for a few hours)
>>>
>>>> Or are there more people involved in producing the flyers?
>>>
>>> Isn't it enough to treat one unjustly?
>>
>> Why is our announcing new Committers a problem of justice?
>
> Because others who have done the SAME job are denied being committers because they are not even asked.

please have - again - a look into the starting mail. It's about to
welcome a new committer.

Do you really think it's OK to complain here in this thread about others
which are not invited?
Don't you think that starting a *new* mail thread is the only way to do
this?

>> It
>> should be celebrated. You should stop these accusations.
>
> I'm sorry, but I will not stand by silently and watch our project become a gentlemen's club, where everyone is sworn to an opinion and whoever dares to express his own opinion is treated as an Troublemaker.

Sure, but please in an own mail thread.

> Unfortunately, I had to learn what counts, e.g. accepting employees of IBM into the PMC and pretending that it is personal achievement (in the sense of voluntary work) to do what you are paid for professionally.
> Well, maybe that was helpful, but is it fair to give one person something with a light hand that you withhold from the other just because you don't like her opinion in some things?
>
>> If
>> there are people that you feel the PMC has missed then please
>> send an email to private@openoffice and let the PMC know.
>
> No, thank you. I'm not gonna pretend that everything is okay here when in truth it's not.
>
> I have had little confidence in the PMC(*) since I experienced the reaction of the PMC to a critical request (on private@openoffice) from me.

But only from just 1-2 people, right? I doubt that it was the complete PMC.

> (*)
> Let me be more specific: I have little trust in those who are currently have a decisive influence on its activities, because there are also members of the PMC whose performance I regard with great respect and many members whom I have never got to know concretely.
>
>> Many of us are NOT on the dev-de@openoffice mailing list and
>> don’t spend any time there. If there have been personal
>> attacks on the -de lists then please let the PMC know at
>> private@openoffice so that it can be looked into. Personal
>> attacks are not OK.
>
> I had a dispute with a PMC member on the mailing list. Do you really think it is helpful to complain to the PMC about being verbally attacked by a PMC member?

Of course, how else do want you point to problems with persons?
Do you think it's helpful to do this in public like it is done now?

BTW:
When someone is not invited until now means *of course not* that the
person is not wanted. Because it is also possible that the PMC don't
know her/him or doesn't see the full amount of participation in the
OpenOffice project.

Marcus


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Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Dr. Michael Stehmann-2
In reply to this post by Jörg Schmidt-2
Hello,

Am 01.07.20 um 16:52 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>>
>> If you want to build a team, performance is not the only thing that
>> counts. But I do not see the problem n practice. I do not
>> know anybody,
>> who has personal aversions in this case.
>
> Then you didn't read Mathias' statement on de-dev (or was it de-users?) about his aversions to me.
>
AFAIk you are a committer, so that is another case.

Kind regards
Michael


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Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Dr. Michael Stehmann-2
In reply to this post by Jörg Schmidt-2
Hello Jörg,

Am 01.07.20 um 16:58 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:

>> Is this your opinion or the opinion of Jan-Christian?
>
> STOP!
> I'm only speaking specifically in person here. Try not to doubt that!
>
> (In fact, I haven't had the chance to talk to Jan at all, because I've only known about the development for a few hours)
>
If you speak "in person" about the treatment of another person here in
public, you should better talk to that person before.

Before making a judgement you have to start with the facts.

Kind regards
Michael


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RE: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Jörg Schmidt-2
Hello Michael,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2020 11:20 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen
>
> Hello Jörg,
>
> Am 01.07.20 um 16:58 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>
> >> Is this your opinion or the opinion of Jan-Christian?
> >
> > STOP!
> > I'm only speaking specifically in person here. Try not to
> doubt that!
> >
> > (In fact, I haven't had the chance to talk to Jan at all,
> because I've only known about the development for a few hours)
> >
> If you speak "in person" about the treatment of another person here in
> public, you should better talk to that person before.

Nothing about that gives you the right to imply what you imply.

Why should I have to consult with Jan at all? Here two people were treated differently, whether Jan bothers or not. That is my opinion, whether Jan shares it or not.

Or if there's a linguistic misunderstanding, you missed your chance to make that clear. But I think the sentence I quoted is crystal clear.


greetings,
Jörg

fyi:
I had written to Jan yesterday immediately to talk to him, but because he was not at home I have no answer yet, only a note that he was not at home.


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Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Carl Marcum
In reply to this post by Marcus (OOo)
Welcome as committer Detlef!!

Best regards,
Carl

On 6/30/20 6:10 PM, Marcus wrote:

> The Apache OpenOffice project is happy to have a new committer on board:
>
> Detlef Nannen
>
> Please give him a warm welcome.
>
> Marcus
> (on behalf of the Apache OpenOffice PMC)
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>


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Re: New Committer: Detlef Nannen

Keith N. McKenna
In reply to this post by Marcus (OOo)
On 6/30/2020 6:10 PM, Marcus wrote:
> The Apache OpenOffice project is happy to have a new committer on board:
>
> Detlef Nannen
>
> Please give him a warm welcome.
>
> Marcus
> (on behalf of the Apache OpenOffice PMC)

Welcome to the ranks of the committers Detlef.

Regards
Keith


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