OOo accessibility?

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OOo accessibility?

MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
Hi,

I had not tried for a long, but I would like to start again with this
suite. Difficult for me to establish the current dev status and support,
but I installed it on my Debian Sid.

Do you have info about its potential accessibility? So far, I use it
with a screen reader, but the window of the doc is not spoken, the
dialogs such as confirmation of exiting and save does not send all the
buttons to the screen reader, so I wonder wether I should run with some
vairables or something else.

Ready to test anyway, and according to the working, why not adopt! :)

Regards

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Re: OOo accessibility?

Bidouille
> but I installed it on my Debian Sid.
You can use the unofficial repository:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/apacheoo-deb/files/debian/

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Re: OOo accessibility?

Peter Kovacs-3
In reply to this post by MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
Hi Jean-Philippe,

Hi All,


I guess you have a visual impairment. I took the opportunity to activate
ORCA speech recognition application on my Linux machine, and played
blind for a while.

For me it was a disappointing experience, but it did work. So first
thing to know the screen reader virtually reads the screen, without
having any Idea of context.

When you Open a new text document, then you get an empty page. May
screen reader identifies this as empty frame, since OpenOffice draws a
optical frame for the border of the printable space.

I simply started to type, and the screen reader read every letter. In
order to get the screen reader to read the the text I had to mark it.
Press Control button and Key A at the same time.

Applying an headline, has been more challenging task. Since everything
works by shortcuts a blind person using a screen reader has to image the
GUI in his head.

So pressing F11, for the styles window, will be then read to the user.
However you have no Idea where you are, or what this nid of a menue is.
So you must know that after it stopped reading the last thing it is
mentioning is a style. Navigate with the down button to the header.
Pressing enter will select the header, but you will not get any
information that you are again on the page and can now type your header.
And you do not get any information, that the style changes when you
press enter. So yea. You get some information, but not enough so you can
really use it.I can confirm, that using Linux, with Gnome Orca screen
reader works. If you know what you are doing it is usable. If you have
no Idea, it is not usable or learn able. The screen reader just misses
to many information when writing text.


On further research I have found out that there is an accessODF
Extension. It aims at closing the gap. I have not tried it yet, and the
last information it states is it works with Apache OpenOffice 3.4.0.
With 4.0.1 we added a sidebar which is not recognized. The development
seems to have stopped in 2013. The extension can be found at [1] for
openOffice, and at [2] is the project page. It isd reported not to work.
But maybe users with impairment face issues from above and cannot
utilize the application.


So next steps. I think further research is needed. And more detailed
experience stories. The one given in the bug are more pleads then
something I can use.

I do not know when I have time to experiment with AccessODF. I will note
it to the Issue we have for Visual Accessibility, which can be found at [3].

In general I would be curious to think on an acoustic user interface for
OpenOffice. With KI tech available and we move away from PCs to tablets
or phones. Acoustic User Interface will be interesting not only for
Impaired people.


[1] https://extensions.openoffice.org/en/project/accessodf

[2] https://sourceforge.net/p/accessodf/home/Home/

[3] https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=70567



Am 06.06.20 um 17:40 schrieb MENGUAL Jean-Philippe:

> Hi,
>
> I had not tried for a long, but I would like to start again with this
> suite. Difficult for me to establish the current dev status and
> support, but I installed it on my Debian Sid.
>
> Do you have info about its potential accessibility? So far, I use it
> with a screen reader, but the window of the doc is not spoken, the
> dialogs such as confirmation of exiting and save does not send all the
> buttons to the screen reader, so I wonder wether I should run with
> some vairables or something else.
>
> Ready to test anyway, and according to the working, why not adopt! :)
>
> Regards
>

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Re: OOo accessibility?

MENGUAL Jean-Philippe
Hi,

Le 06/06/2020 à 21:49, Peter Kovacs a écrit :
> Hi Jean-Philippe,
>
> Hi All,
>
>
> I guess you have a visual impairment. I took the opportunity to activate
> ORCA speech recognition application on my Linux machine, and played
> blind for a while.

Many thanks, yes I am blind

>
> For me it was a disappointing experience, but it did work. So first
> thing to know the screen reader virtually reads the screen, without
> having any Idea of context.

Actually Orca rely on the at-spi tree (or ATK). You can see what is sent
to it via a program such as accerciser, showing the accessibility tree
and how Orca has the information.

That said, in a new document window, Orca should at least say "blank" to
say that it is on the part of the window to write.

>
> When you Open a new text document, then you get an empty page. May
> screen reader identifies this as empty frame, since OpenOffice draws a
> optical frame for the border of the printable space.
>
> I simply started to type, and the screen reader read every letter. In
> order to get the screen reader to read the the text I had to mark it.
> Press Control button and Key A at the same time.

Ok, but should not. In Libreoffice (and order OOo releases), Orca speaks
each character, then you can review them via the arrow keys.

>
> Applying an headline, has been more challenging task. Since everything
> works by shortcuts a blind person using a screen reader has to image the
> GUI in his head.

Normally, I press ctrl-f11 then scroll the style list via the down key.
At each pressing, Orca tell where the carte is.

>
> So pressing F11, for the styles window, will be then read to the user.
> However you have no Idea where you are, or what this nid of a menue is.
> So you must know that after it stopped reading the last thing it is
> mentioning is a style. Navigate with the down button to the header.
> Pressing enter will select the header, but you will not get any
> information that you are again on the page and can now type your header.

I should. I suggest you to compare with LO, to see wether the user
experience is the same for you, it should not. The point here is not
saying LO is more accessible than OOo, but establishing wether we are in
front of a misconfiguration at runtime, easily fixable, or really code
problems which have been landed to OOo for some releases (because it had
worked some years ago).
If some accessibility was broken, it would imply much work I guess, so I
will see how to support it according to the working of the project.


> And you do not get any information, that the style changes when you
> press enter. So yea. You get some information, but not enough so you can
> really use it.I can confirm, that using Linux, with Gnome Orca screen
> reader works. If you know what you are doing it is usable. If you have
> no Idea, it is not usable or learn able. The screen reader just misses
> to many information when writing text.
>
>
> On further research I have found out that there is an accessODF
> Extension. It aims at closing the gap. I have not tried it yet, and the
> last information it states is it works with Apache OpenOffice 3.4.0.

Ok I will try it

> With 4.0.1 we added a sidebar which is not recognized. The development
> seems to have stopped in 2013. The extension can be found at [1] for
> openOffice, and at [2] is the project page. It isd reported not to work.
> But maybe users with impairment face issues from above and cannot
> utilize the application.
>
>
> So next steps. I think further research is needed. And more detailed
> experience stories. The one given in the bug are more pleads then
> something I can use.

I can help to improve the diagnostic and see what solutions exist. Ready
to collaborate, as a power-user/tester.

Many thanks and best regards,

>
> I do not know when I have time to experiment with AccessODF. I will note
> it to the Issue we have for Visual Accessibility, which can be found at
> [3].
>
> In general I would be curious to think on an acoustic user interface for
> OpenOffice. With KI tech available and we move away from PCs to tablets
> or phones. Acoustic User Interface will be interesting not only for
> Impaired people.
>
>
> [1] https://extensions.openoffice.org/en/project/accessodf
>
> [2] https://sourceforge.net/p/accessodf/home/Home/
>
> [3] https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=70567
>
>
>
> Am 06.06.20 um 17:40 schrieb MENGUAL Jean-Philippe:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I had not tried for a long, but I would like to start again with this
>> suite. Difficult for me to establish the current dev status and
>> support, but I installed it on my Debian Sid.
>>
>> Do you have info about its potential accessibility? So far, I use it
>> with a screen reader, but the window of the doc is not spoken, the
>> dialogs such as confirmation of exiting and save does not send all the
>> buttons to the screen reader, so I wonder wether I should run with
>> some vairables or something else.
>>
>> Ready to test anyway, and according to the working, why not adopt! :)
>>
>> Regards
>>

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Re: OOo accessibility?

Peter Kovacs-3
Hi,

Am 06.06.20 um 22:07 schrieb MENGUAL Jean-Philippe:
> Many thanks, yes I am blind
You are welcome.

>
>>
>> For me it was a disappointing experience, but it did work. So first
>> thing to know the screen reader virtually reads the screen, without
>> having any Idea of context.
>
> Actually Orca rely on the at-spi tree (or ATK). You can see what is
> sent to it via a program such as accerciser, showing the accessibility
> tree and how Orca has the information.
>
> That said, in a new document window, Orca should at least say "blank"
> to say that it is on the part of the window to write.

Ahh sorry. yes it says "blank", I mean actually it says "leer" because I
am german.  I was not aware that it indicates an edit mode for you. I am
not blind, and learning to be blind is also a process. I will look into
at-spi tree. It will also help me understand how the gui stuff works,
maybe there are easy improvements that can be done.

If you have time, can you create a small guide / How to use OpenOffice
as a blind person? It would help me to learn how you work, plus we would
have a small start for other visual impaired users.

>> When you Open a new text document, then you get an empty page. May
>> screen reader identifies this as empty frame, since OpenOffice draws
>> a optical frame for the border of the printable space.
>>
>> I simply started to type, and the screen reader read every letter. In
>> order to get the screen reader to read the the text I had to mark it.
>> Press Control button and Key A at the same time.
>
> Ok, but should not. In Libreoffice (and order OOo releases), Orca
> speaks each character, then you can review them via the arrow keys.
Ahh up and down reads the  complete text. did not know that. Nice!
>>
>> Applying an headline, has been more challenging task. Since
>> everything works by shortcuts a blind person using a screen reader
>> has to image the GUI in his head.
>
> Normally, I press ctrl-f11 then scroll the style list via the down
> key. At each pressing, Orca tell where the carte is.
Ahh thanks that is a much better shortcut :)

>>
>> So pressing F11, for the styles window, will be then read to the
>> user. However you have no Idea where you are, or what this nid of a
>> menue is. So you must know that after it stopped reading the last
>> thing it is mentioning is a style. Navigate with the down button to
>> the header. Pressing enter will select the header, but you will not
>> get any information that you are again on the page and can now type
>> your header.
>
> I should. I suggest you to compare with LO, to see wether the user
> experience is the same for you, it should not. The point here is not
> saying LO is more accessible than OOo, but establishing wether we are
> in front of a misconfiguration at runtime, easily fixable, or really
> code problems which have been landed to OOo for some releases (because
> it had worked some years ago).
> If some accessibility was broken, it would imply much work I guess, so
> I will see how to support it according to the working of the project.

I have only Libre Office 5.1.6.2 installed at all and it did not work at
all. I hear "frame" and "no re". And then it stays silence. Even menues
are not read. I have no Idea why. But LO have put a lot of work into a
new more modern GUI, while OpenOffice still uses the old implementation.

>>
>> On further research I have found out that there is an accessODF
>> Extension. It aims at closing the gap. I have not tried it yet, and
>> the last information it states is it works with Apache OpenOffice 3.4.0.
>
> Ok I will try it
looking forward to your experience report.
> I can help to improve the diagnostic and see what solutions exist.
> Ready to collaborate, as a power-user/tester.
>
> Many thanks and best regards,

You are welcome. However I have to point out, that we are hopelessly
understaffed. So do not put to much hope on results. The chances are not
0, but well I don't make promises.


all the best

Peter


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