Re: Introduction and online presence

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
10 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Introduction and online presence

Dean.Webber
Hi everyone, glad to be here. I am going to jump right in with my intentions and to share some things.

During the course of this year, I hope to find a solution to UI issues under Linux with regards to Mint-Y-xxxx themes and various other themes under other Linux distributions. This UI issue makes the program hard to use where entering data into text areas (character, pictures, save, calc etc) (more detail https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=106&t=104563)

I tried to email direct from the list at https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Directory+of+Volunteers but it seems this list may require update 🙂

My main concern is that some people believe that AOO is not being developed or updated, clearly this is not the case. I would like to point some of the volunteers in marketing, user support/assistance and business management to engage in forums and online communities to show that AOO is still being developed. Specifically, I am referring to https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/ and Reddit communities.

It seems that the moderators of the forum point users with issues to use LO, recently to someone with a small issue such as installing the desktop-integration RPM component of AOO on Red Hat Linux.

It also seems that MS might be dropping support for 32-bit programs, so perhaps a x64 edition of AOO?

What I would ultimately like to see, is any serious bugs ironed out that prevent widespread adoption of AOO, I only know of the UI bug, and to see AOO 4.2.0 included as the main Office Suite in Linux Distributions. <- Because AOO is awesome, as are the contributors and volunteers 🙂 👍

My background, Mechanical Engineering student from New Zealand. I will try to install AOO on various Linux Distributions and check the themes for UI issues.

Sorry to jump right in without getting a 'feel' for what's happening at the moment in this dev-list. Keep up the great work on your projects everyone 🙂 🙏 🙂

All the best.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Introduction and online presence

Peter Kovacs-3
Hi Dean,


welcome to the AOO development list.


On 24.02.21 20:35, Dean.Webber wrote:
> Hi everyone, glad to be here. I am going to jump right in with my intentions and to share some things.
>
> During the course of this year, I hope to find a solution to UI issues under Linux with regards to Mint-Y-xxxx themes and various other themes under other Linux distributions. This UI issue makes the program hard to use where entering data into text areas (character, pictures, save, calc etc) (more detail https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=106&t=104563)

GTK (Linux) GUI. At least I am am aware of the Issue. I even had done
the analysis. What I did not manage to review how it is done correctly.
The Code is not right.

I thought I noted the case somewhere. But I just figured out that I
noted: [no issue yet] clean switch between GTK2 and GTK3

Argh.... Well I hope I can figure I find the code piece quickly. I know
what to look for.

Should I put this on the priority list?

>
> I tried to email direct from the list at https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Directory+of+Volunteers but it seems this list may require update 🙂
Take it as an invite to make suggestions.
>
> My main concern is that some people believe that AOO is not being developed or updated, clearly this is not the case. I would like to point some of the volunteers in marketing, user support/assistance and business management to engage in forums and online communities to show that AOO is still being developed. Specifically, I am referring to https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/ and Reddit communities.
Some people say that OpenOffice is dead for 10 years now. IMHO this
discussion is purely emotional. It is difficult to argue with them.
>
> It seems that the moderators of the forum point users with issues to use LO, recently to someone with a small issue such as installing the desktop-integration RPM component of AOO on Red Hat Linux.
>
> It also seems that MS might be dropping support for 32-bit programs, so perhaps a x64 edition of AOO?

Microsoft and 32 bit support. People should read closely. Microsoft
stops the OEM 32 bit sale, but will provide support to existing 32bit
installs. And that does not include the 32bit support in 64 bit
environment. So there is no risk to be feared. And if someone writes
that it is not true. I recommend that he should wonder what happens to
his steam collection, since most games are still 32 bit. ;)

However that is not an excuse for the situation on OpenOffice 64 bit
version. The development has been started, but is now stuck I think for
2 years now. I am not currently sure where Damjan stopped. I think in
the lower uno layers.

I guess therefor we will continue if we look into this topic deeper.
Probably together with the silicon port. However I think it is more
important that we upgrade the SDK first. The One we wuse is ancient. :(

>
> What I would ultimately like to see, is any serious bugs ironed out that prevent widespread adoption of AOO, I only know of the UI bug, and to see AOO 4.2.0 included as the main Office Suite in Linux Distributions. <- Because AOO is awesome, as are the contributors and volunteers 🙂 👍
We would like to see that too. Easier said then done. :-D
>
> My background, Mechanical Engineering student from New Zealand. I will try to install AOO on various Linux Distributions and check the themes for UI issues.
>
> Sorry to jump right in without getting a 'feel' for what's happening at the moment in this dev-list. Keep up the great work on your projects everyone 🙂 🙏 🙂
You are welcome to post your findings. If you want you can apply for an
Bugzilla account and note your findings there. However I would rather
suggest to test with the 4.2.0 Version.
>
> All the best.

All the best

Peter

--
This is the Way! http://www.apache.org/theapacheway/index.html
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: Introduction and online presence

Jörg Schmidt-2
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2021 9:22 PM
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Introduction and online presence

> My main concern is that some people believe that AOO is not being developed or updated, clearly this is not the case. I would like to point some of the volunteers in marketing, user support/assistance and business management to engage in forums and online communities to show that AOO is still being developed. Specifically, I am referring to https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/ and Reddit communities.
Some people say that OpenOffice is dead for 10 years now. IMHO this
discussion is purely emotional. It is difficult to argue with them.

This dicussioin is NOT emotional, but Abbold of our insufficient public relations.
It is clear that you, as a PMC member, are trying to deny this, because the PMC has for years been completely inadequate in its responsibility in this regard and reacts attacked when it is criticized.


>
> It seems that the moderators of the forum point users with issues to use LO, recently to someone with a small issue such as installing the desktop-integration RPM component of AOO on Red Hat Linux.
>
> It also seems that MS might be dropping support for 32-bit programs, so perhaps a x64 edition of AOO?

> Microsoft
> stops the OEM 32 bit sale, but will provide support to existing 32bit
> installs.

WHERE did you get this? Do you work for Microsoft? Or did you not understand the statement of Dean at all?


> And that does not include the 32bit support in 64 bit
> environment. So there is no risk to be feared. And if someone writes
> that it is not true. I recommend that he should wonder what happens to
> his steam collection, since most games are still 32 bit. ;)

Stop formulating personal attacks here, against the opinions of others!




Jörg


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Introduction and online presence

Rory O'Farrell
On Thu, 25 Feb 2021 10:19:09 +0100
Jörg Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:

>  
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2021 9:22 PM
> > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: Introduction and online presence
>
> > My main concern is that some people believe that AOO is not being developed or updated, clearly this is not the case. I would like to point some of the volunteers in marketing, user support/assistance and business management to engage in forums and online communities to show that AOO is still being developed. Specifically, I am referring to https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/ and Reddit communities.
> Some people say that OpenOffice is dead for 10 years now. IMHO this
> discussion is purely emotional. It is difficult to argue with them.
>
> This dicussioin is NOT emotional, but Abbold of our insufficient public relations.
> It is clear that you, as a PMC member, are trying to deny this, because the PMC has for years been completely inadequate in its responsibility in this regard and reacts attacked when it is criticized.
>
>
> >
> > It seems that the moderators of the forum point users with issues to use LO, recently to someone with a small issue such as installing the desktop-integration RPM component of AOO on Red Hat Linux.

I answer only this point: it is frequently the case that Forum moderators and Volunteers are faced with a problem from a user who is panicking about completing a project, and who, by deduction from their post, lacks computer skills. The quickest solution (and easiest for an inexperienced user) may be to direct them to another program, be it LO, or as is often the case, recommend that they revert to MS Office.  

Volunteers on Forum work, as do those developing, on a pro bono basis (for which all should be grateful); as time is precious to us all, Forum volunteers often take the quickest path to a solution.  It is not their role to educate in the workings of a computer or to lead an inexperienced user on a long step by step path to a possible solution.

Rory

> >
> > It also seems that MS might be dropping support for 32-bit programs, so perhaps a x64 edition of AOO?
>
> > Microsoft
> > stops the OEM 32 bit sale, but will provide support to existing 32bit
> > installs.
>
> WHERE did you get this? Do you work for Microsoft? Or did you not understand the statement of Dean at all?
>
>
> > And that does not include the 32bit support in 64 bit
> > environment. So there is no risk to be feared. And if someone writes
> > that it is not true. I recommend that he should wonder what happens to
> > his steam collection, since most games are still 32 bit. ;)
>
> Stop formulating personal attacks here, against the opinions of others!
>
>
>
>
> Jörg
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>


--
Rory O'Farrell <[hidden email]>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: Introduction and online presence

Jörg Schmidt-2
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2021 10:35 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Introduction and online presence

> > > It seems that the moderators of the forum point users
> with issues to use LO, recently to someone with a small issue
> such as installing the desktop-integration RPM component of
> AOO on Red Hat Linux.
>
> I answer only this point: it is frequently the case that
> Forum moderators and Volunteers are faced with a problem from
> a user who is panicking about completing a project, and who,
> by deduction from their post, lacks computer skills. The
> quickest solution (and easiest for an inexperienced user) may
> be to direct them to another program, be it LO, or as is
> often the case, recommend that they revert to MS Office.  
>
> Volunteers on Forum work, as do those developing, on a pro
> bono basis (for which all should be grateful); as time is
> precious to us all, Forum volunteers often take the quickest
> path to a solution.  It is not their role to educate in the
> workings of a computer or to lead an inexperienced user on a
> long step by step path to a possible solution.

This may be true, but we should realize that support work is also work for the
project, work that determines the quality of AOO.
We could improve a lot in volunteer support if we organized our work better.

And I say this as someone who has been regularly volunteering 10-20 hours a week
in the http://de.openoffice.info forum for 15 years, so I know very well the
demands of the field.




greetings,
Jörg


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Introduction and online presence

Dave Fisher-2


> On Feb 25, 2021, at 1:57 AM, Jörg Schmidt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2021 10:35 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: Introduction and online presence
>
>>>> It seems that the moderators of the forum point users
>> with issues to use LO, recently to someone with a small issue
>> such as installing the desktop-integration RPM component of
>> AOO on Red Hat Linux.
>>
>> I answer only this point: it is frequently the case that
>> Forum moderators and Volunteers are faced with a problem from
>> a user who is panicking about completing a project, and who,
>> by deduction from their post, lacks computer skills. The
>> quickest solution (and easiest for an inexperienced user) may
>> be to direct them to another program, be it LO, or as is
>> often the case, recommend that they revert to MS Office.  
>>
>> Volunteers on Forum work, as do those developing, on a pro
>> bono basis (for which all should be grateful); as time is
>> precious to us all, Forum volunteers often take the quickest
>> path to a solution.  It is not their role to educate in the
>> workings of a computer or to lead an inexperienced user on a
>> long step by step path to a possible solution.
>
> This may be true, but we should realize that support work is also work for the
> project, work that determines the quality of AOO.
> We could improve a lot in volunteer support if we organized our work better.

The Forum volunteers are their own sub-team kept intact from before Apache OpenOffice.

Their tagline is "User community support forum for Apache OpenOffice, LibreOffice and all the OpenOffice.org derivatives”.

This PMC member has no desire to disrupt their efforts.

>
> And I say this as someone who has been regularly volunteering 10-20 hours a week
> in the http://de.openoffice.info forum for 15 years, so I know very well the
> demands of the field.

Thank you very much. You are running that service, and we are not controlling you.

Your service can be found, but not directly from forum.openoffice.org through this page [1] which may need updates.

Regards,
Dave

[1] https://www.openoffice.org/de/foren.html


>
>
>
>
> greetings,
> Jörg
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Introduction and online presence

Dave Fisher-2
In reply to this post by Dean.Webber
Hi -

Welcome to the Apache OpenOffice herd of cats. Let us know what you find! Scratch your itch!

Regards,
Dave

> On Feb 24, 2021, at 11:35 AM, Dean.Webber <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone, glad to be here. I am going to jump right in with my intentions and to share some things.
>
> During the course of this year, I hope to find a solution to UI issues under Linux with regards to Mint-Y-xxxx themes and various other themes under other Linux distributions. This UI issue makes the program hard to use where entering data into text areas (character, pictures, save, calc etc) (more detail https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=106&t=104563)
>
> I tried to email direct from the list at https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Directory+of+Volunteers but it seems this list may require update 🙂
>
> My main concern is that some people believe that AOO is not being developed or updated, clearly this is not the case. I would like to point some of the volunteers in marketing, user support/assistance and business management to engage in forums and online communities to show that AOO is still being developed. Specifically, I am referring to https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/ and Reddit communities.
>
> It seems that the moderators of the forum point users with issues to use LO, recently to someone with a small issue such as installing the desktop-integration RPM component of AOO on Red Hat Linux.
>
> It also seems that MS might be dropping support for 32-bit programs, so perhaps a x64 edition of AOO?
>
> What I would ultimately like to see, is any serious bugs ironed out that prevent widespread adoption of AOO, I only know of the UI bug, and to see AOO 4.2.0 included as the main Office Suite in Linux Distributions. <- Because AOO is awesome, as are the contributors and volunteers 🙂 👍
>
> My background, Mechanical Engineering student from New Zealand. I will try to install AOO on various Linux Distributions and check the themes for UI issues.
>
> Sorry to jump right in without getting a 'feel' for what's happening at the moment in this dev-list. Keep up the great work on your projects everyone 🙂 🙏 🙂
>
> All the best.


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Introduction and online presence

Dean.Webber
In reply to this post by Jörg Schmidt-2
>
> It also seems that MS might be dropping support for 32-bit programs, so perhaps a x64 edition of AOO?

> Microsoft
> stops the OEM 32 bit sale, but will provide support to existing 32bit
> installs.

WHERE did you get this? Do you work for Microsoft? Or did you not understand the statement of Dean at all?

Why Are Most Programs Still 32-bit on a 64-bit Version of Windows? (howtogeek.com)<https://www.howtogeek.com/194119/why-are-most-programs-still-32-bit-on-a-64-bit-version-of-windows/> <- July 2017
Windows support of third party 32bit applications into the future - Microsoft Community<https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/apps_windows_10-winapps-appscat_tools/windows-support-of-third-party-32bit-applications/227db050-3f65-4f7c-ae35-b316c094d492> <-  October 2020

Microsoft will eventually be dropping support for 32-bit applications, but due to the large number on current programs only available this will not be happening in the immediate future. Microsoft are yet to comment officially on when this will occur, but (seem to) have made indications this will be the case. At this stage, newer versions of window releases will require 64 bit hardware, but they will continue to support older 32 bit systems. AOO will have to migrate to a 64-bit Windows version eventually... But working on upgrading the SDK is the priority at this stage 🙂( "However I think it is more important that we upgrade the SDK first. The One we use is ancient." -Peter Kovacs)


> And that does not include the 32bit support in 64 bit
> environment. So there is no risk to be feared. And if someone writes
> that it is not true. I recommend that he should wonder what happens to
> his steam collection, since most games are still 32 bit. ;)

Stop formulating personal attacks here, against the opinions of others!

It is clear that MS will continue to support 32-bit applications for sometime, and yes I am curious what this means for everyone's Steam collection 😉 Ultimately the source of my original post was someone not technically inclined thinking MS would be dropping support in the near future for 32-bit programs, which as we should all agree is not the case in the immediate future. It was mostly "purely emotional" of the original forum user in their response, and I agree that "It is difficult to argue with them". I will try to gently educate the users that it is not of concern (at this stage) and to stay calm 😉 AOO will be 64bit at some stage 🙂🙂

- Dean

________________________________
From: Jörg Schmidt <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, 25 February 2021 10:19 PM
To: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: Introduction and online presence



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2021 9:22 PM
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Introduction and online presence

> My main concern is that some people believe that AOO is not being developed or updated, clearly this is not the case. I would like to point some of the volunteers in marketing, user support/assistance and business management to engage in forums and online communities to show that AOO is still being developed. Specifically, I am referring to https://apc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fforum.openoffice.org%2Fen%2Fforum%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7C2018001901%40student.sit.ac.nz%7C17ba4fca739844e25fd708d8d96e6f58%7Cc46ab213d1794a719ff7b9d9fe3f3b48%7C0%7C0%7C637498415656542844%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=eoXyKXh6P3FkL7E9G6NBvB7Rnn5A6bVKkrHfqoURfhE%3D&amp;reserved=0 and Reddit communities.
Some people say that OpenOffice is dead for 10 years now. IMHO this
discussion is purely emotional. It is difficult to argue with them.

This dicussioin is NOT emotional, but Abbold of our insufficient public relations.
It is clear that you, as a PMC member, are trying to deny this, because the PMC has for years been completely inadequate in its responsibility in this regard and reacts attacked when it is criticized.


>
> It seems that the moderators of the forum point users with issues to use LO, recently to someone with a small issue such as installing the desktop-integration RPM component of AOO on Red Hat Linux.
>
> It also seems that MS might be dropping support for 32-bit programs, so perhaps a x64 edition of AOO?

> Microsoft
> stops the OEM 32 bit sale, but will provide support to existing 32bit
> installs.

WHERE did you get this? Do you work for Microsoft? Or did you not understand the statement of Dean at all?


> And that does not include the 32bit support in 64 bit
> environment. So there is no risk to be feared. And if someone writes
> that it is not true. I recommend that he should wonder what happens to
> his steam collection, since most games are still 32 bit. ;)

Stop formulating personal attacks here, against the opinions of others!




Jörg


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Introduction and online presence

Hagar Delest-2
I've limited the quotes because they have been really bad in the
previous messages. Please take care when you want to quote someone else.

Le 26/02/2021 à 02:19, Dean.Webber a écrit :
> It was mostly "purely emotional" of the original forum user in their
> response, and I agree that "It is difficult to argue with them". I
> will try to gently educate the users that it is not of concern (at
> this stage) and to stay calm 😉 AOO will be 64bit at some stage 🙂🙂
> - Dean

Could you please explain???
I understand you're saying that forum users are emotional and they
spread false information like MS would drop 32bit support.
I don't remember any power user saying such things. We are hardly
emotional in the forum, we have taken great care to avoid all the
trolling and the FUD in all the AOO/LO topics (not that many BTW).
The forum has been a long time champion of AOO (over LO). I think that
the old subscribers on this list know me (as Hagar on forums and AOO
mailing lists). Some other forum power users also participate to this
list from time to time and I don't think "it is difficult to argue with"
us. Your patronizing is rather ill placed.

Personally, I despise what happened with the forking. I continued to
support AOO a very long time. However, late last year, the level of this
very mailing list reached a low that was the trigger for me. More energy
was wasted on semantics or futile topics, some of the messages in this
very discussion still show delicate interactions. Thus, I tried LO,
something I would never have though of before. Just to see. And
actually, it's good. After several weeks of testing for my production
work, I can tell that it's better than AOO, it made me save times, ease
my daily work and is stable.

When it forked, I thought that it would be a great experience for the
opensource community. Just look at the result years afterward: LO has
embarked most of the developers! They started from nothing, compared to
the Apache branding and they managed a marketing plan that got it where
it is: included in most GNU/Linux distros, corporate support...

I'm still stunned by how many users still don't know about LO and come
to AOO first. This is the only thing that makes AOO still alive IMHO.
The AOO project benefits from the huge OOo and Apache
reputation/history. But I fear that's all.

Can' wait for your gentle education BTW!

Hagar

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Introduction and online presence

Peter Kovacs-3
In reply to this post by Jörg Schmidt-2

On 25.02.21 10:19, Jörg Schmidt wrote:

>  
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2021 9:22 PM
>> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: Introduction and online presence
>> Microsoft
>> stops the OEM 32 bit sale, but will provide support to existing 32bit
>> installs.
> WHERE did you get this? Do you work for Microsoft? Or did you not understand the statement of Dean at all?

see section 3.1

** Beginning with Windows 10, version 2004, all new Windows 10 systems
will be required to use 64-bit builds and Microsoft will no longer
release 32-bit builds for OEM distribution. This does not impact 32-bit
customer systems that are manufactured with earlier versions of Windows
10; Microsoft remains committed to providing feature and security
updates on these devices, including continued 32-bit media availability
in non-OEM channels to support various upgrade installation scenarios.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/minimum/minimum-hardware-requirements-overview

I think drop of windows 32 bit support as Apple did it, is not feasible
on Windows, since a lot of the Eco system is still 32 bit.


Despite I do not believe 32 bit will fade away, I have stated that we
should deliver a 64 bit Windows version of AOO. However the migration
process is stuck.


@Dean: No I do not work for Microsoft. This is my personal opinion.


I want also to say something to the emotional threads.

I wanted to express my concern that in a lot of times a discussion
becomes emotional or personal valued. One indication maybe when one
participant says that OpenOffice is dead or abandoned. Which I keep
hearing, despite we have Maintenance releases.

They are not the world, but we look after the code. And we make sure we
fix issues. I asked once fo a definition what would be reasonable for a
alive project. The answer has been every quarter a release. And at this
point I think it is not about what makes sense or not. It is about being
right or not. And this makes discussions very emotional, very quickly.

It was not meant as a general statement on the Forums. Or critics on the
Forum. I do not have the time to read the forums. I can not judge this.
And I am fine if the forums support LO and AOO or what ever. Now people
like Jörg and Hagar seem to feel attacked by me.

I am not sure why, but maybe my English is shaky at the moment, and was
not well written. So please take my apologies.


All the best

Peter

--
This is the Way! http://www.apache.org/theapacheway/index.html