Re: [dev-educ] Wiki Cleanup: Mission Accomplished (Mostly)

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Re: [dev-educ] Wiki Cleanup: Mission Accomplished (Mostly)

eric b-3
Hi,

bjoern michaelsen - Sun Microsystems - Hamburg Germany a écrit :
> Hi List,
> the Wiki Cleanup has been almost completed. There are just seven pages
> left in:
>  http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Special:UncategorizedPages


and ... what is the problem with the previous Education Project IRC
Meeting ?


> If you can remove those, please do so. Also note the new Guidelines at:



No I won't : every IRC meeting is a part of the OpenOffice.org story, so
  this is not an option to delete that.


>  http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Wiki_Contribution_Guidelines


Historically, the wiki was there for *developers*, and then came some
people who want to control every body, every thing ...


How sad ... :-/



> All previous guidelines now refer to that page. Please stick to them when creating new content or when updating old. Pages that ignoring the
> guidelines will be dealt with more vicously from now on (read: they might just be deleted).


I think you really do a bad job there.


> Other categories still need help. The Education project is asked to take responsibility for the pages in category "Education" and
> its subcategories.

Why yet another war against Education Project  ?


FYI, at the beginning (you were not there ..) it was decided to NOT add
categories to the IRC meetings (same for the macport, because it was too
noisy.

But as I wrote, you just came after those rules have been decided, and
worse : new rules have been invented without take care of the first one :/


> Please take a close look at the pages in the following categories:
>
>  http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Category:Education
> ‎(156 members)


I won't : this is an important IRC meeting, made with students, and it
*must* be kept : this is the history of the project that you want to
delete.

Again, the worse thing that can happen in a Community project in fact ...


>
> Please create subcategories (for example: "Education/Meeting Minutes",
> "Education/Effort") and move the pages into the more specific
> subcategory.


I'm not Sun-Oracle employee, so do it yourself.


> Best Regards and thanks to all who helped out,


If you remove the IRC meeting, I'll stop immediately to contribute to
the OpenOffice.org Wiki, and  I'll publically explain what happened.


Eric Bachard

--
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.free.fr/news

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Re: Re: [dev-educ] Wiki Cleanup: Mission Accomplished (Mostly)

Björn Michaelsen-2
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:31:21 +0200
eric <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> bjoern michaelsen - Sun Microsystems - Hamburg Germany a écrit :
> > Hi List,
> > the Wiki Cleanup has been almost completed. There are just seven
> > pages left in:
> >  http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Special:UncategorizedPages
> and ... what is the problem with the previous Education Project IRC
> Meeting ?
Its not added to the Category:Education or any of its subcategories.
Actually it is not in any category at all.

> No I won't : every IRC meeting is a part of the OpenOffice.org story,
> so this is not an option to delete that.
You dont have to -- just adding [[Category:Education]] in the
first place might have saved you a lot of hassle.

> Historically, the wiki was there for *developers*, and then came some
> people who want to control every body, every thing ...
This is not about control. It is about _not_ littering the wiki with
pages that are not linked and categorized. Before the cleanup there
where more than 1400 such pages. Nobody ever felt responsible for them.
Some contained spam, bad advertisements and other legally questionable
content that is a risk to the OpenOffice.org project. How would you
like some extreme political rants hosted on OpenOffice.org? Between
1400 uncategorized pages we would never know about them until the
lawyers drop us a note.

> I think you really do a bad job there.
I dont think so. And you might care to explain yourself.

> Why yet another war against Education Project  ?
No need for paranoia. All other projects have been notified too.

> FYI, at the beginning (you were not there ..) it was decided to NOT
> add categories to the IRC meetings (same for the macport, because it
> was too noisy.
"In the beginning" the wiki was small. However, it is _not_ noisy to
have a category "Education/Minutes" or "Education/IRCLogs" that is a
subcategory of "Education" and drop the logs there.
see

 http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Category:Extensions/Minutes

The Extension project does not seem to have died from that.

> But as I wrote, you just came after those rules have been decided,
> and worse : new rules have been invented without take care of the
> first one :/
There was no "first rule" -- actually there were ca. 10 different sets
of rules, all contradicting a bit and duplicating a bit.
And in contrast to all the other "inventors" of rules, I cleaned up
most of the wiki myself, before asking other to stick to at least a few
basic guidelines. I you volunteer to check and watch the next 1400
pages that are either not linked or categorized and take legal blame
for what comes up there, I might be more inclined to take your opinion
seriously.

> > Please take a close look at the pages in the following categories:
> >
> >  http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Category:Education
> > ‎(156 members)
> I won't : this is an important IRC meeting, made with students, and
> it *must* be kept : this is the history of the project that you want
> to delete.
Please read again what I wrote: I do not want to delete those pages,
but I ask you to make subcategories in Education, so people might find
some useful navigation. I wont delete something that has
[[Category:Education]] (or one of its subcategories) on it -- however I
will regard you and the Education project to be responsible for the
content.
 
> Again, the worse thing that can happen in a Community project in
> fact ...
Yeah, see how the Documentation and User Experience communities are
enraged by the cleanup an the simplification of contribution guidelines
(yes, those have been quite complex up to now -- you just did not
notice because you choose to ignore them).

> > Please create subcategories (for example: "Education/Meeting
> > Minutes", "Education/Effort") and move the pages into the more
> > specific subcategory.
> I'm not Sun-Oracle employee, so do it yourself.
That was not an order or command (those rarely start with "please").
Maybe you should consider the concern anyway just as Sun employees
consider yours.

> > Best Regards and thanks to all who helped out,
> If you remove the IRC meeting, I'll stop immediately to contribute to
> the OpenOffice.org Wiki, and  I'll publically explain what happened.
Is it really that hard to add [[Category:Education/Minutes]] to the
text that you copy-pasted? I dont think so. You probably could have
done that on all Education Minutes currently on the Wiki in less time
it took you to write this mail.

BR,

Bjoern


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Re: Re: [dev-educ] Wiki Cleanup: Mission Accomplished (Mostly)

Mathias Bauer
In reply to this post by eric b-3
eric wrote:

> Why yet another war against Education Project  ?

You shouldn't jump to conclusions. Björn has sent mails to many mailing
lists, not only yours. First he asks for using categories at all for
reasons that have been discussed and explained on the dev list. Please
just use *any* category ("education" would fit the bill) so that we can
identify orphaned and obsolete pages easier.

His mail also is just a friendly hint that using more specific
categories could help interested readers to find what they are looking
for. It's completely up to you if you want to follow that. If you are
fine with using "education" as the category, no problem.

> If you remove the IRC meeting, I'll stop immediately to contribute to
> the OpenOffice.org Wiki, and  I'll publically explain what happened.

I recommend to cool down. You got a friendly hint and answered it with a
 blackmailing attempt. Not something that lets you look good in the public.

Regards,
Mathias

--
Mathias Bauer (mba) - Project Lead OpenOffice.org Writer
OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS
Please don't reply to "[hidden email]".
I use it for the OOo lists and only rarely read other mails sent to it.

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Re: Re: [dev-educ] Wiki Cleanup: Mission Accomplished (Mostly)

stephan.bergmann
In reply to this post by eric b-3
On 03/29/10 14:31, eric wrote:
> bjoern michaelsen - Sun Microsystems - Hamburg Germany a écrit :
>> the Wiki Cleanup has been almost completed. There are just seven pages
>> left in:
>>  http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Special:UncategorizedPages
[...]
>> If you can remove those, please do so. Also note the new Guidelines at:
>
>
>
> No I won't : every IRC meeting is a part of the OpenOffice.org story, so
>  this is not an option to delete that.

I interpreted the "remove" as "get them off the UncategorizedPages page
(by adding them to a category)," not as "delete them from the
Wiki"---and I'm pretty sure that's also how Björn intended it to be
interpreted.

-Stephan

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Re: Re: [dev-educ] Wiki Cleanup: Mission Accomplished (Mostly)

Björn Michaelsen-2
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:07:28 +0200
Stephan Bergmann <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I interpreted the "remove" as "get them off the UncategorizedPages
> page (by adding them to a category)," not as "delete them from the
> Wiki"---and I'm pretty sure that's also how Björn intended it to be
> interpreted.

Yes, that was the point. I am still flappergasted by the reaction
though -- a short query via email or via IRC (where I am idling all
the time) would have cleared that up easily. Resorting to a public
email with ad hominem attacks instead shows that there is indeed "a
deep smog on our communication flow" as Sophie pointed out in another
thread.

BR,

Bjoern


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