Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration

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Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration

Bruce D'Arcus
On Dec 4, 2007 2:42 PM, Morten Omholt Alver <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have been working on a plugin for integrating JabRef better with
> OpenOffice.org via the UNO interface (to clarify: it's a plugin for
> JabRef - which will support plugins from the next version). It's far
> from finished, but you can at the moment do the basics like inserting
> citations and formatting the bibliography according to a style
> definition. I'd like to try to get the help of some interested users
> with testing and development.

Cool; thanks for the note.

> The plan is for this plugin eventually to be bundled with JabRef, but
> for now, I've made the current version of the plugin available on the
> following address:
>
> http://www.itk.ntnu.no/ansatte/Alver_Omholt_Morten/jabref/OOPlugin.html
>
> The source code isn't too comprehensive, so if you're interested in
> helping out, try it out and have a look at the code!

This brings up something I've been thinking about for awhile. I'm not
sure if David or others agree with me on this, but here's my thinking:

The OOo bibliographic project started with the idea to replace the
integrated bibliographic component with something much better, but
still developed within the framework of OOo.

For a variety of reasons, I think this is the wrong way to go. One of
those reasons is that the Zotero project has pretty much done what I'd
hope to achieve with OOoBib:

1) a rich data model and nice UI
2) good import/export
3) use of the CSL citation styling language
4) integration iwith Word and OOo

... and so, finally a good, cross-platform application that is
suitable for a wide range of fields, including the social sciences and
humanities (where traditional tools often fail). I'm currently using
it for an article manuscript.

I'd like to see this project, then, work on enhancing the integration
of tools like Zotero and JabRef with OOo. I'd encourage people, for
example, to get their hands dirty with testing, with trying to offer
support on places like the Zotero forums, and where possible to spend
time figuring out the code so that we can ensure excellent support
long-term, enhancements, and so forth.

I'd ideally like to use this work to converge on an enhanced citation
API in OOo that allows for standardized integration (and encoding in
ODF 1.2)

I'd also like to see other projects pick up CSL, but that's a somewhat
separate issue.

So I'm basically suggesting a shift in focus designed to get stuff
working NOW, and enhance as we go.

Thoughts?

Bruce

PS - Oh, and I think we should urge Sun deprecate the existing
citation and bib support ASAP.

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Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration

Paolo Cavallini
Bruce D'Arcus ha scritto:
...
> So I'm basically suggesting a shift in focus designed to get stuff
> working NOW, and enhance as we go.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Bruce
>
> PS - Oh, and I think we should urge Sun deprecate the existing
> citation and bib support ASAP.

Bruce:
I completely agree with you. Even if still work has to be done on it,
Zotero seems really the killing app in this field.
Unfortunately, for the moment the styles are few, and there is not a
practical way of contributing, but I understand this is going to change
soon.
All the best.
pc
--
Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc

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Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration

Bruce D'Arcus
On Dec 5, 2007 12:52 AM, Paolo Cavallini <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I completely agree with you. Even if still work has to be done on it,
> Zotero seems really the killing app in this field.
> Unfortunately, for the moment the styles are few, and there is not a
> practical way of contributing, but I understand this is going to change
> soon.

Have you seen ...

<http://www.zotero.org/styles>

...? In the space of a few weeks, the number of styles has grown
dramatically, mostly as the result of contributions from one person.

Oh, and with Zotero 1.02, you can install them by clicking the
"install" link; works beautifully. Also, the styles are free for any
project to use.

Bruce

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Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration

Bruce D'Arcus
In reply to this post by Bruce D'Arcus
On Dec 5, 2007 9:21 AM, Morten Omholt Alver <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There are two other links needed for the interaction: first, where is
> the information specified by CSL coming from? In JabRef's case, it
> comes from BibTeX fields, filtered by JabRef's formatters (as in the
> FORMATTERS section of my style file). I guess we would need to find
> some other place (outside of the CSL) for this information?

Think of CSL as providing it's own generic model that one can map
different input formats to.

But WRT to OOo and ODF, I expect to be using an RDF representation
(since ODF 1.2 will suppoort RDF for metadata):

<http://bibliontology.com>

BTW, there's a developer at the Xbib project who has been working on a
ruby CSL engine and biblio ontoloogy object model.

> The other thing is whether OpenOffice will support CSL, or if we need
> to transform it ourselves into OO's bibliography structure? I
> understand that this could possibly be a difficult question to answer
> at the moment.

I have talked with the ODF TC about formally including CSL in the ODF
spec, so that may happen at some point. But I would consider the
existing support in OOo and ODF as legacy that will at some point get
deprecated. Indeed, Zotero completely bypasses it now.

Bruce

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Re: Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration

David Wilson-7
In reply to this post by Bruce D'Arcus
I largely different with Bruce, and encourage the development of Bibliographic
applications that can effectively interact with OpenOffice. I differ from
Bruce in not yet being fully convinced that we should abandon the idea of
building a native integrated bibliographic facility in to OpenOffice.

However, whilst some Bibliographic enhancements ARE scheduled for OpenOffice
version 3.  ( http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Features ). There is
no date set for this release, although I would hazard a guess for mid to late
2008. Also there is as yet no decision as to the Bibliographic features that
would be included in that release. We know that the Writer development team
has rather limited development resources and as a OOo Project.  Thus third
solution for a usable bibliographic facility now or in the near future.

Currently there are complexities involved with Zotero and other 3rd party
bibliographic apps in sharing documents and the related bibliographic data,
which would be greatly reduced with an integrated bibliographic facility.  
Maybe applications like Zotero will solve these problems (they are being
discussed on the Zotero development wiki) and if they can solve them then my
desire for an integrated bibliographic application may well be weakened.

Regarding "deprecate the existing citation and bib support ASAP", I have never
considered it usable, and would be happy to see it gone.

A list member recently pointed out to me that my first enhancement request
that started this project #5038, "was filed 1999 days ago by yours truly" .
and that it "makes me wonder if we'll see any working implementation before I
retire (in about 15 years)." I have not yet given up hope.

I urge all the list members to to contact any skilled developers that they
know who may be interesting in working on this project. A couple of skilled
and committed programmers could really accelerate this project. Otherwise we
completely are at the mercy of the priorities and limitations of the SUN
Writer development team.


regards

david

On Wed, 5 Dec 2007, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:

>
> This brings up something I've been thinking about for awhile. I'm not
> sure if David or others agree with me on this, but here's my thinking:
>
> The OOo bibliographic project started with the idea to replace the
> integrated bibliographic component with something much better, but
> still developed within the framework of OOo.
>
> For a variety of reasons, I think this is the wrong way to go. One of
> those reasons is that the Zotero project has pretty much done what I'd
> hope to achieve with OOoBib:
>
> 1) a rich data model and nice UI
> 2) good import/export
> 3) use of the CSL citation styling language
> 4) integration iwith Word and OOo
>
> ... and so, finally a good, cross-platform application that is
> suitable for a wide range of fields, including the social sciences and
> humanities (where traditional tools often fail). I'm currently using
> it for an article manuscript.
>
> I'd like to see this project, then, work on enhancing the integration
> of tools like Zotero and JabRef with OOo. I'd encourage people, for
> example, to get their hands dirty with testing, with trying to offer
> support on places like the Zotero forums, and where possible to spend
> time figuring out the code so that we can ensure excellent support
> long-term, enhancements, and so forth.
>
> I'd ideally like to use this work to converge on an enhanced citation
> API in OOo that allows for standardized integration (and encoding in
> ODF 1.2)
>
> I'd also like to see other projects pick up CSL, but that's a somewhat
> separate issue.
>
> So I'm basically suggesting a shift in focus designed to get stuff
> working NOW, and enhance as we go.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Bruce
>
> PS - Oh, and I think we should urge Sun deprecate the existing
> citation and bib support ASAP.
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]



--
-------------------
David N. Wilson
Co-Project Lead for the Bibliographic
OpenOffice.org Project
http://bibliographic.openoffice.org

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Re: Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration

Bruce D'Arcus
On Dec 5, 2007 7:55 PM, David Wilson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Currently there are complexities involved with Zotero and other 3rd party
> bibliographic apps in sharing documents and the related bibliographic data,
> which would be greatly reduced with an integrated bibliographic facility.

Well, they'll be solved by an integrated API and standardized ODF
encoding. If JabRef and Zotero, for example, both use the same
mechanism for citation insertion and updating, and embed the same
citation and bib data code in the files, then it achieves that
objective. My point is we need that regardless of whether we build
something on top of it as an integrated tool.

So I'd like to see if we can work with developers from Zotero, JabRef,
etc. to enhance that baseline support. If out that some other
developer start to build the integrated tool we originally envisioned,
that's great. But I don't think we can depend on that panning out. And
in any case, as I say, it's not an either/or choice; just a question
of immediate priorities.

Bruce

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Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration

brendel
In reply to this post by Bruce D'Arcus
Hello,

I agree that the bibliographic functionning need not be within
OpenOffice,
however just to remind you : Zotero is not the only "working" example
out there , Bibus integrates nicely with OO and Word without using
the OO integrated database.

Oliver


On 6 Dec 2007 at 20:53, Morten Omholt Alver wrote:

Date sent:       Thu, 6 Dec 2007 20:53:05 +0100
From:           "Morten Omholt Alver" <[hidden email]>
To:             [hidden email]
Copies to:       [hidden email]
Subject:         Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration

> On 05/12/2007, Bruce D'Arcus <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Dec 5, 2007 9:21 AM, Morten Omholt Alver <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > The other thing is whether OpenOffice will support CSL, or if we need
> > > to transform it ourselves into OO's bibliography structure? I
> > > understand that this could possibly be a difficult question to answer
> > > at the moment.
> >
> > I have talked with the ODF TC about formally including CSL in the ODF
> > spec, so that may happen at some point. But I would consider the
> > existing support in OOo and ODF as legacy that will at some point get
> > deprecated. Indeed, Zotero completely bypasses it now.
>
> That's an interesting thought. So Zotero creates and formats its own
> bibliography field without even touching the built-in bibliography
> features? I hadn't really considered that option, but I can imagine
> that this wouldn't be too difficult. It would also let us bypass the
> limitations of the bibliography system. I need to learn more about
> using the UNO API...
>
> --
> Morten
>


_________________________________________________________
Oliver Brendel UMR Ecologie et Ecophysiologie Forestiere
INRA - Centre de Nancy         54280 Champenoux    France
[hidden email]   TEL 0033/383/394100  FAX /394022

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Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration

Bruce D'Arcus
[hidden email] wrote:

> I agree that the bibliographic functionning need not be within
> OpenOffice,
> however just to remind you : Zotero is not the only "working" example
> out there , Bibus integrates nicely with OO and Word without using
> the OO integrated database.

True enough.

But to be blunt, Zotero is the only working example that I consider
adequate to the full range of citation practice.

Bibus adopts the very limited BibTeX-based data model of ODF 1.0. This
already means its limited mostly to the hard sciences. For that reason
alone, I can't use it.

Zotero, OTOH, supports a fuller data model. It also supports a fuller
range of citation practices common in the social sciences and humanities
(and hopefully law):

  - automatic footnoting of note-based references
  - support for ibid.
  - first/subsequent references forms
  - prefix and suffix notes
  - page, line, etc. locators for citations

These kinds of details can impact implementation of course.

But I'd love to see a variety of projects (including Bibus) help us to
figure out how to move forward and hopefully converge on a generic
solution for integration. To me the ultimate goal is that different
users, using different bibliographic applications AND different ODF
editors (perhaps even Word) can pass around their documents and have the
citations remain "live."

There's a bit of work to do before we can get there of course!

BTW, see Mathias Bauer's recent post no field enhancements coming in OOo
2.4.

<http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/custom_properties_and_fields>

That could be an interim solution before the new text:meta-field from
ODF 1.2 gets implemented that would give us better functionality and
interop with Word.

Bruce

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Re: Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration

David Wilson-7
In reply to this post by Bruce D'Arcus
On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:

>
> So I'd like to see if we can work with developers from Zotero, JabRef,
> etc. to enhance that baseline support. If out that some other
> developer start to build the integrated tool we originally envisioned,
> that's great. But I don't think we can depend on that panning out. And
> in any case, as I say, it's not an either/or choice; just a question
> of immediate priorities.
>
> Bruce

As a start, I have set up a wiki page to assist in the managing of Zotero
plugin issues. There is not much there yet and I invite interested people to
add to it.

http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Zotero_Plugin


regards

David
--
-------------------
David N. Wilson
Co-Project Lead for the Bibliographic
OpenOffice.org Project
http://bibliographic.openoffice.org

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Re: Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration

Leonard Mada-2
Hi all,


David Wilson wrote:

> On Thu, 6 Dec 2007, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
>  
>> So I'd like to see if we can work with developers from Zotero, JabRef,
>> etc. to enhance that baseline support. If out that some other
>> developer start to build the integrated tool we originally envisioned,
>> that's great. But I don't think we can depend on that panning out. And
>> in any case, as I say, it's not an either/or choice; just a question
>> of immediate priorities.
>>
>> Bruce
>>    
>
> As a start, I have set up a wiki page to assist in the managing of Zotero
> plugin issues. There is not much there yet and I invite interested people to
> add to it.
>
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Zotero_Plugin
>  

I strongly suggest moving this page to a new location, something like:
 
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Bibliographic_Project/Plugins/Zotero
instead of creating such orphaned pages.

All bibliographic wiki-pages should be ultimately moved below the
top-level page 'Bibliographic_Project'.

I hope nobody gets annoyed by this quibbling about the wiki-structure.
As you know, I am rather focused on the hierarchical organisation of
data  (http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Bib-Keywords), and this
makes sense. It becomes much easier to navigate such sites, see e.g.
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Writer/ToDo/Layout/Multi_Page_Layout 
where one easily can navigate back to the top-level Writer page.
[http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Writer]

I hope therefore, that all project leads will enforce this style and
improve existing wikis by moving orphaned pages below the top-level
project's wiki-page.

Sincerely,

Leonard

> regards
>
> David
>  

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Re: Re: [users-biblio] JabRef - OpenOffice integration

David Wilson-7
On Sun, 9 Dec 2007, Leonard Mada wrote:
>
> I strongly suggest moving this page to a new location, something like:
>
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Bibliographic_Project/Plugins/Zote
>ro instead of creating such orphaned pages.

Leonard,

        Thanks for the the suggestion. When I started the wiki pages I just copied
what most other people were doing - which was a flat file structure with any
hierarchy built using category links.

I can see there advantages in moving to a hierarchical directory organisation.
Are there any objections to my restructuring the wiki pages in this way ?


regards
David

On Sun, 9 Dec 2007, Leonard Mada wrote:

>
> All bibliographic wiki-pages should be ultimately moved below the
> top-level page 'Bibliographic_Project'.
>
> I hope nobody gets annoyed by this quibbling about the wiki-structure.
> As you know, I am rather focused on the hierarchical organisation of
> data  (http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Bib-Keywords), and this
> makes sense. It becomes much easier to navigate such sites, see e.g.
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Writer/ToDo/Layout/Multi_Page_Layo
>ut where one easily can navigate back to the top-level Writer page.
> [http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Writer]
>
> I hope therefore, that all project leads will enforce this style and
> improve existing wikis by moving orphaned pages below the top-level
> project's wiki-page.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Leonard
>
> > regards
> >
> > David
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
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--
-------------------
David N. Wilson
Co-Project Lead for the Bibliographic
OpenOffice.org Project
http://bibliographic.openoffice.org

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Hierarchical wiki

Leonard Mada-2
Hi David,


David Wilson wrote:

> On Sun, 9 Dec 2007, Leonard Mada wrote:
>  
>> I strongly suggest moving this page to a new location, something like:
>>
>> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Bibliographic_Project/Plugins/
>> Zotero instead of creating such orphaned pages.
>>    
>
> Leonard,
>
> Thanks for the suggestion. When I started the wiki pages I just copied
> what most other people were doing - which was a flat file structure with any
> hierarchy built using category links.
>
> I can see there advantages in moving to a hierarchical directory organisation.
> Are there any objections to my restructuring the wiki pages in this way ?
>  

No objections from me. Actually, I strongly encourage it. I already did
some work on the Writer and Calc pages
(http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Writer and
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Calc), while Tony Galmiche (and
others) did an excellent job for the Chart2 wiki (see
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Chart2).

There is still a lot to do, but if every project lead enforces this
style for his project, then things will only improve. I remember when I
first come to OOo: it was genuine luck to find any useful information.
So I hope these were past times and newbies will fare nowadays better.
[My biggest problem is the very limited time, otherwise I would have
moved much more pages around. ;-) ]

Sincerely,

Leonard


> regards
> David

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