Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

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Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

Evan Brown
Hi everyone

In response to Michael Bauer's posts here and on the LibreOffice lists about
taking over the Scottish Gaelic (gd) project for OpenOffice/LibreOffice (which I
was Project Lead for in the case of OpenOffice anyway), I'd like to officially
drop out of the project, if possible, please.

I started a new position with an organisation down in England in May and am no
longer working for Canan, the company that was responsible for the original
localisations.  

There is no 'variety of reasons' for my personal lack of activity other than
that.  I'm not a Gaelic speaker and was a technical rather than linguistic lead
in any case.   I now have neither the time nor the capability to contribute to
or certainly to lead the project.  I made this clear after the end of the 3.01
localisation effort but nobody came forward then to take over.  I'm glad that
the project now seems to have someone who is prepared and able to lead it.

That said, I have updated the project homepage in the last few days because the
download links for v3,01 of OpenOffice had broken.  The Canan server where the
build files used to reside has apparently disappeared.  The builds are of course
still available from Pavel's site but I have linked in this instance to copies
of the executables that are being offered by Learning and Teaching Scotland, as
the sponsoring organisation behind the original projects in Gaelic.

I wish Michael and the Gaelic localisation team all the best for the future of
OpenOffice/LibreOffice in Gaelic.

Bye for now

Evan




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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

Michael Bauer
Hiya Evan,

Good to hear from you - thanks for letting us know and thanks for your
best wishes, I similarly hope that your move down South is working out
for you!

le meas,

Michael


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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

Rimas Kudelis
Hi Michael,

Do you plan to use Pootle for translation?
If yes, then:
* do you already have an account there?
* Do you perhaps know the plural rule (or the gettext plural equation)
for gd?
      * if no, then is this correct:
             1 >> Form 1
             2 >> Form 2
             11 >> Form 3
             12 >> Form 4
             3-10, 13-19 >> Form 5
             0, 20 and anything above >> Form 6

I don't think LibreOffice currently supports plural forms, but it
wouldn't hurt to have that stuff ready in Pootle. :)

Regards,
Rimas


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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

Michael Bauer
Hi Rimas,

Yes, I'm using Pootle; and yes, the plural rules are missing but Frank
Mau is dealing with that aspect. The below rules are the slightly more
complicated version of this ruleset:
https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Localization_and_Plurals#Plural_rule_.234_%284_forms%29

We ended up formulating the more complicated ones because of something
about the way Wikipedia handles plurals in its localisation project.

I'll wait and see what Frank comes back saying but thanks for the
suggestion anyway!

Michael


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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

Frank Mau-2
Yes correct, these

Plural rule #4 (4 forms)

Families: Celtic (Scottish Gaelic)
is 1 or 11: 1, 11
is 2 or 12: 2, 12
others between 3 and 19: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19
everything else: 0, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, …

rules are in place for Celtic on OpenOffice.org Pootle server.
Cheers,
Frank


Am 08.12.2010 22:39, schrieb Michael Bauer:
Hi Rimas,

Yes, I'm using Pootle; and yes, the plural rules are missing but Frank Mau is dealing with that aspect. The below rules are the slightly more complicated version of this ruleset: https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Localization_and_Plurals#Plural_rule_.234_%284_forms%29

We ended up formulating the more complicated ones because of something about the way Wikipedia handles plurals in its localisation project.

I'll wait and see what Frank comes back saying but thanks for the suggestion anyway!

Michael




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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

Michael Bauer
Great, thanks!

Can I ask though what format strings within Pootle should take? For
example regarding that "...there is/are only '$count$' parameter(s)
allowed" string. 4 forms separated by semicolons as on Mozilla i.e.
...'$count$' pharamadair...;...'$count$' pharamadair...;...'$count$'
paramadairean...;...'$count$' paramadair...

Or some other way? Whatever the format, I assume I can only use it in
strings with the $count$ placeholder?

Michael

08/12/2010 22:24, Sgrìobh Frank Mau:

> Yes correct, these
>
>
>       Plural rule #/*4*/ (4 forms)
>
> *Families*: Celtic (Scottish Gaelic)
> *is 1 or 11*: 1, 11
> *is 2 or 12*: 2, 12
> *others between 3 and 19*: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16,
> 17, 18, 19
> *everything else*: 0, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31,
> 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48,
> 49, 50, 51, …
>
> rules are in place for Celtic on OpenOffice.org Pootle server.
> Cheers,
> Frank
>
>
>

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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

Rimas Kudelis
In reply to this post by Frank Mau-2
Hi Frank,

care to paste the gettext equation string to me?

Thanks!
Rimas


2010.12.09 00:24, Frank Mau rašė:

> Yes correct, these
>
>
>        Plural rule #/*4*/ (4 forms)
>
> *Families*: Celtic (Scottish Gaelic)
> *is 1 or 11*: 1, 11
> *is 2 or 12*: 2, 12
> *others between 3 and 19*: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19
> *everything else*: 0, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33,
> 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, …
>
> rules are in place for Celtic on OpenOffice.org Pootle server.
> Cheers,
> Frank
>


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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

Rimas Kudelis
In reply to this post by Michael Bauer
Hi Michael,

2010.12.09 01:11, Michael Bauer rašė:
> Can I ask though what format strings within Pootle should take? For
> example regarding that "...there is/are only '$count$' parameter(s)
> allowed" string. 4 forms separated by semicolons as on Mozilla i.e.
> ...'$count$' pharamadair...;...'$count$' pharamadair...;...'$count$'
> paramadairean...;...'$count$' paramadair...
>
> Or some other way? Whatever the format, I assume I can only use it in
> strings with the $count$ placeholder?

I can answer that. Wherever multiple plural forms are supported, Pootle
presents you with a separate input field for each of them, so you simply
enter them separately. Where there's only one input field, it's unlikely
that multiple plural forms are supported.

HTH,
Rimas


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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

Michael Bauer
Great, thank!

Michael

09/12/2010 06:27, Sgrìobh Rimas Kudelis:

>
>
> I can answer that. Wherever multiple plural forms are supported,
> Pootle presents you with a separate input field for each of them, so
> you simply enter them separately. Where there's only one input field,
> it's unlikely that multiple plural forms are supported.
>
> HTH,
> Rimas
>
>
>

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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

Michael Bauer
In reply to this post by Frank Mau-2
Frank,

When I go to resource.po, string 34, it still only offers me the one
translation box. According to Rimas post, it should now offer me 4. Do I
need to change something else somewhere?

Michael

08/12/2010 22:24, Sgrìobh Frank Mau:

> Yes correct, these
>
>
>       Plural rule #/*4*/ (4 forms)
>
> *Families*: Celtic (Scottish Gaelic)
> *is 1 or 11*: 1, 11
> *is 2 or 12*: 2, 12
> *others between 3 and 19*: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16,
> 17, 18, 19
> *everything else*: 0, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31,
> 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48,
> 49, 50, 51, …
>
> rules are in place for Celtic on OpenOffice.org Pootle server.
> Cheers,
> Frank
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

Michael Bauer
In reply to this post by Michael Bauer
Evan,

Yes, Pavel's site is where we got the po files we're currently working
on but there are such large gaps in it and a lot of entries with
"deuchainn" (test) in them that I suspect there must be something more
recent than what's on Pavel's site. As I've already done a lot of work,
I'd have to check and upload each po manually to avoid overwriting stuff
I've already done but it would be very helpful to have whatever was
closes to the release date.

Could you check your archives for the most recent batch of completed po
files that don't have deuchainn splattered all over them?

Thanks a lot!

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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

Dwayne Bailey
In reply to this post by Frank Mau-2
On 09/12/2010 00:24, Frank Mau wrote:
Yes correct, these

Plural rule #4 (4 forms)

Families: Celtic (Scottish Gaelic)
is 1 or 11: 1, 11
is 2 or 12: 2, 12
others between 3 and 19: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19
everything else: 0, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, …

rules are in place for Celtic on OpenOffice.org Pootle server.

Please be sure to add the Gettext plural forms to:
http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/l10n/pluralforms#g
This is a resource used by many people to find the correct plural form.

From that page we are able to gather plural rules to provide by default in Pootle installs, which means that any Pootle server is ready for Gettext plurals.

Cheers,
Frank


Am 08.12.2010 22:39, schrieb Michael Bauer:
Hi Rimas,

Yes, I'm using Pootle; and yes, the plural rules are missing but Frank Mau is dealing with that aspect. The below rules are the slightly more complicated version of this ruleset: https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Localization_and_Plurals#Plural_rule_.234_%284_forms%29

We ended up formulating the more complicated ones because of something about the way Wikipedia handles plurals in its localisation project.

I'll wait and see what Frank comes back saying but thanks for the suggestion anyway!

Michael




--


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Phone: +49 40 23646894
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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

Rimas Kudelis
Hi Dwayne,

2010.12.10 09:14, Dwayne Bailey rašė:

> On 09/12/2010 00:24, Frank Mau wrote:
>> Yes correct, these
>>
>>
>>       Plural rule #/*4*/ (4 forms)
>>
>> *Families*: Celtic (Scottish Gaelic)
>> *is 1 or 11*: 1, 11
>> *is 2 or 12*: 2, 12
>> *others between 3 and 19*: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, 16,
>> 17, 18, 19
>> *everything else*: 0, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31,
>> 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48,
>> 49, 50, 51, …
>>
>> rules are in place for Celtic on OpenOffice.org Pootle server.
>>
> Please be sure to add the Gettext plural forms to:
> http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/l10n/pluralforms#g
> This is a resource used by many people to find the correct plural form.
>
> From that page we are able to gather plural rules to provide by
> default in Pootle installs, which means that any Pootle server is
> ready for Gettext plurals.

I've just copied the gd equation from
http://pootle.services.openoffice.org/export/openoffice_org/gd/cui/source/customize.po 
to this wiki page. Please make sure to add this language to Pootle's
default list in future. ;)

Rimas
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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

F Wolff-2
In reply to this post by Michael Bauer

Op Wo, 2010-12-08 om 21:39 +0000 skryf Michael Bauer:

> Hi Rimas,
>
> Yes, I'm using Pootle; and yes, the plural rules are missing but Frank
> Mau is dealing with that aspect. The below rules are the slightly more
> complicated version of this ruleset:
> https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Localization_and_Plurals#Plural_rule_.234_%284_forms%29
>
> We ended up formulating the more complicated ones because of something
> about the way Wikipedia handles plurals in its localisation project.
>
> I'll wait and see what Frank comes back saying but thanks for the
> suggestion anyway!
>
> Michael

Hi Michael

I'm trying to build the plural support into Pootle and Virtaal for
future releases. I just realised that the plural rules discussed in the
article on the Mozilla site is entirely different from this one:
https://translations.launchpad.net/+languages/gd

Can you maybe shed some light on this? They don't seem to even be close
to each other, so I'd like to ensure that we do the right thing. Some of
the differences I note:

0 file
11 files
12 files
20 files

These would select different forms between the two described ways.

Hopefully we can add support in our tools soon.

Keep well
Friedel

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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

Michael Bauer
Friedel,

Easy. The rules on Launchpad are wrong. I hadn't seen those as I tend
not to use Launchpad but prefer to handle gd localisations at each
project's source and localising and OS is not high on the list of
priorities right now. But thanks for pointing those out, I'll see if I
can get those amended.

Irish has a similar problem. Kevin Scannell once explained that in the
early days of the web some enthusiastic person put out a bad plural
ruleset for Irish and he's been chasing it around cyberspace ever since.
I'm also trying to get the right rules onto Unicode but those guys make
the Siachen Glacier look like a MiG.

Thanks for the headsup again!

Michael


11/01/2011 13:33, Sgrìobh F Wolff:

> Hi Michael
>
> I'm trying to build the plural support into Pootle and Virtaal for
> future releases. I just realised that the plural rules discussed in the
> article on the Mozilla site is entirely different from this one:
> https://translations.launchpad.net/+languages/gd
>
> Can you maybe shed some light on this? They don't seem to even be close
> to each other, so I'd like to ensure that we do the right thing. Some of
> the differences I note:
>
> 0 file
> 11 files
> 12 files
> 20 files
>
> These would select different forms between the two described ways.
>
> Hopefully we can add support in our tools soon.
>
> Keep well
> Friedel
>

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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

F Wolff-2

Op Di, 2011-01-11 om 13:50 +0000 skryf Michael Bauer:

> Friedel,
>
> Easy. The rules on Launchpad are wrong. I hadn't seen those as I tend
> not to use Launchpad but prefer to handle gd localisations at each
> project's source and localising and OS is not high on the list of
> priorities right now. But thanks for pointing those out, I'll see if
> I
> can get those amended.
>
> Irish has a similar problem. Kevin Scannell once explained that in
> the
> early days of the web some enthusiastic person put out a bad plural
> ruleset for Irish and he's been chasing it around cyberspace ever
> since.
> I'm also trying to get the right rules onto Unicode but those guys
> make
> the Siachen Glacier look like a MiG.
>
> Thanks for the headsup again!
>
> Michael


Ok, I suspected something like that was possible. I'm adding support to
both Pootle, Virtaal and the Translate Toolkit. What is the preferred
name for your language? I see the ISO codes package refers to it as
"Gaelic; Scottish Gaelic" - we try to find a way of fixing these names,
at least for English. Should I prefer "Gaelic" or "Scottish Gaelic"? I
guess "Scottish Gaelic" is better since some people refer to Irish as
Gaelic as well.

Any special characters that localisers might not be able to type easily?
We can add those in Pootle as clickable links by default if you think it
is useful enough.

Furthermore, we can now look into our quality checks to see if any
customisations can be done to ensure they serve your language well. If
you are interested in customising Virtaal for some of its language
specific features, we can look down that path as well (not necessarily a
big task).

Keep well
Friedel


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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

Michael Bauer
The preferred name is Scottish Gaelic (Gaelic is ambiguous as you say,
referring to Scots, Irish and Manx Gaelic).

Special characters would be the vowels with grave Àà Òò Ùù Èè Ìì and the
Tironian ampersand. Now technically that's ⁊ at U+204A but practically
speaking, people often use ┐ at U+2510 because it's visually usually the
same but is more commonly represented in fonts. 204A would be better but
I can live with 2510. What do you think?

What sort of customisations for Virtaal are you talking about? I've not
used it much so not sure what's possible etc.

Cheers,

Michael

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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

F Wolff-2

Op Do, 2011-01-13 om 12:35 +0000 skryf Michael Bauer:
> The preferred name is Scottish Gaelic (Gaelic is ambiguous as you say,
> referring to Scots, Irish and Manx Gaelic).

I committed initial support for Scottish Gaelic including the plural
form to our software, and it will form part of our next release.


> Special characters would be the vowels with grave Àà Òò Ùù Èè Ìì ...

Is there a specific reason you mention them in this order? I usually try
to sort alphabetically or in order of frequency if it is obvious (for
example I usually list the capitals last).  Where shall we position the
Tironian ampersand (when we decide which one to use :-)?


> ... and the
> Tironian ampersand. Now technically that's ⁊ at U+204A but practically
> speaking, people often use ┐ at U+2510 because it's visually usually the
> same but is more commonly represented in fonts. 204A would be better but
> I can live with 2510. What do you think?

I can't speak for the font coverage. On my system U+204A is displayed
with DejaVu Sans just fine, which is the font used as the main UI font
on most Linux distributions, I think. It is also packaged with
OpenOffice.org as far as I know, so it isn't totally unsupported. In
tools that use a Monospace font by default (like Virtaal or text
editors) it might be more of an issue, since I see it isn't present in
DejaVu Sans Mono, although I still have it in the FreeMono font on my
system. Most such editors allow setting a custom font anyway.

The more important issue might be that the Unicode properties for these
two characters are different. The one is classified as punctuation
(204A) and the other as a symbol (2510). This won't make a difference in
many situations, but can only make things go wrong. I guess it might
affect advanced searches, line breaking and maybe more. I can't say for
sure.

As a total outsider it seems as if 204A could hold some advantages, but
in terms of the practicalities I can't cast a judgement. The ideal would
be if we gradually do things better, but it is hard to convince people
to improve font support for small languages. It is a common problem in
Africa for languages needing extra diacritics. Now if you could get some
government to mandate language support for imported products, it might
just get fixed quite quickly :-)


> What sort of customisations for Virtaal are you talking about? I've not
> used it much so not sure what's possible etc.

Similar things to what would help improving OpenOffice.org.  We can use
a spell checker and autocorrect data exactly as they are used in
OpenOffice.org.  I guess Kevin Scannel is the best person to talk to
with regards to spell checkers.  I can help you build the necessary
autocorrect files - we have some scripts to take a spreadsheet of
incorrect -> correct columns and generate the file needed for Virtaal
and OpenOffice.org.

Another interesting feature of Virtaal is Autoterm, where translators
can automatically obtain the common FOSS glossary. Read more here:
http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/virtaal/autoterm

Further customisations to the quality checks might benefit users if
there are common false positives or cases where the accuracy of the
tests can be improved with knowledge of Scottish Gaelic. This is not
important or urgent. I guess if you use the quality checks you might
eventually know if there are things you want to see improved.

Keep well
Friedel


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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

Michael Bauer
> Is there a specific reason you mention them in this order? I usually try
> to sort alphabetically or in order of frequency if it is obvious (for
> example I usually list the capitals last).  Where shall we position the
> Tironian ampersand (when we decide which one to use :-)?
Errr, no, sorry, they just group that way phonologically in Gaelic,
alphabetically is fine.
> As a total outsider it seems as if 204A could hold some advantages, but
> in terms of the practicalities I can't cast a judgement. The ideal would
> be if we gradually do things better, but it is hard to convince people
> to improve font support for small languages. It is a common problem in
> Africa for languages needing extra diacritics. Now if you could get some
> government to mandate language support for imported products, it might
> just get fixed quite quickly :-)
Ya that would be the thing. I did a test page and a straw poll on my
Facebook account. Last time I ran a test, virtually everyone had boxes
but this time, only about half reported probles and then usually linked
to Google Chrome; interestingly cross-OS support has improved. What
worries me is that mobile devices can't handle 204A at all by the looks
of it, whereas most seem to do the other one fine. So I think we'll go
with the second-best option for now; I'll monitor development and when I
can see a majority of platforms supporting 204A, we can make the change.
For now, it's more important that it displays, rather than encoding purity.

> Similar things to what would help improving OpenOffice.org. We can use
> a spell checker and autocorrect data exactly as they are used in
> OpenOffice.org.  I guess Kevin Scannel is the best person to talk to
> with regards to spell checkers.  I can help you build the necessary
> autocorrect files - we have some scripts to take a spreadsheet of
> incorrect ->  correct columns and generate the file needed for Virtaal
> and OpenOffice.org.
There already is one:
http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/en/project/faclair-afb (though
the server seems to be down just now). Is there some way we can utilise
that?
> Another interesting feature of Virtaal is Autoterm, where translators
> can automatically obtain the common FOSS glossary. Read more here:
> http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/virtaal/autoterm
Sounds good, I'll check it out.

Thanks for all your help!

Michael
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Re: Scottish Gaelic (gd) localisation

F Wolff-2

Op Do, 2011-01-13 om 17:37 +0000 skryf Michael Bauer:

> > Is there a specific reason you mention them in this order? I usually try
> > to sort alphabetically or in order of frequency if it is obvious (for
> > example I usually list the capitals last).  Where shall we position the
> > Tironian ampersand (when we decide which one to use :-)?
> Errr, no, sorry, they just group that way phonologically in Gaelic,
> alphabetically is fine.
> > As a total outsider it seems as if 204A could hold some advantages, but
> > in terms of the practicalities I can't cast a judgement. The ideal would
> > be if we gradually do things better, but it is hard to convince people
> > to improve font support for small languages. It is a common problem in
> > Africa for languages needing extra diacritics. Now if you could get some
> > government to mandate language support for imported products, it might
> > just get fixed quite quickly :-)
> Ya that would be the thing. I did a test page and a straw poll on my
> Facebook account. Last time I ran a test, virtually everyone had boxes
> but this time, only about half reported probles and then usually linked
> to Google Chrome; interestingly cross-OS support has improved. What
> worries me is that mobile devices can't handle 204A at all by the looks
> of it, whereas most seem to do the other one fine. So I think we'll go
> with the second-best option for now; I'll monitor development and when I
> can see a majority of platforms supporting 204A, we can make the change.
> For now, it's more important that it displays, rather than encoding purity.

If it improved quickly, I guess it will get even better. Chrome has some
font issues; I'm guessing it will just disappear one of these days. The
releases of Pootle we make now, only affect people installing this in
future, targeting even later usage.

I just had a new idea: adding both.  This way people can make the choice
per application they are translating. It seems that only mobile
applications might need the wrong character.  What do you think about
that idea?

> > Similar things to what would help improving OpenOffice.org. We can use
> > a spell checker and autocorrect data exactly as they are used in
> > OpenOffice.org.  I guess Kevin Scannel is the best person to talk to
> > with regards to spell checkers.  I can help you build the necessary
> > autocorrect files - we have some scripts to take a spreadsheet of
> > incorrect ->  correct columns and generate the file needed for Virtaal
> > and OpenOffice.org.
> There already is one:
> http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/en/project/faclair-afb (though
> the server seems to be down just now). Is there some way we can utilise
> that?

Perfect.  I can upload it soon. Just say - do you feel it is ready for
general use for localisers? The "beta" warning is very bold here :-)


Friedel

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