Slow but steady, please

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Slow but steady, please

Dennis E. Hamilton
I think the Wikipedia editing adventure did not have a good ending.  That is to be expected.

I think that there is no point in attempting to edit Wikipedia in situations such as this.  These things invariably end badly.

On the other hand, there are level-headed folk out there, and you might find this heartening:
<http://www.linuxpromagazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruce-Byfield-s-Blog/Apache-OpenOffice-Not-Dead-Yet>.

There's a technical error, and I have provided correction in a comment.

I have no interest in fact-checking any farther than that.  It's an opinion peace and there's no reason to address that.

What I did say, also by comment, was what I think matters.  That is about our performance, and how we play nice with others, all in the spirit of producing software for the public good.  I believe that what matters is how we conduct ourselves and deliver.  That's it.  Slow and steady as she goes.

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Phillip Rhodes [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2015 15:55
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Wrongful information on the Wikipedia

Sorry, I missed the infobox when I looked at the page.  You're right,
having "Dormant" there is flat out wrong and very misleading.

I changed it to "Active" just now and added a ref pointer to the 4.1.2
release schedule that Andrea just provided.  I just hope there aren't
certain parties with a vested interest in denigrating AOO sitting around
planning to start a revert war over this.   :-(


Phil


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On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 10:08 AM, Max Merbald <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Phil,
>
> what I meant was the infobox at the top right. In that box it says that
> AOO is dormat, which is not correct and which is not in the citations. The
> presence of a citation does not necessry mean that the claimed info is in
> the citation. If people read on the Wikipedia that AOO is "dormant" they'll
> start looking for different office software.
>
> Max
>
>
>
> Am 03.09.2015 um 23:12 schrieb Phillip Rhodes:
>
>> I just looked at the Wikipedia page and don't see anything that's -
>> strictly speaking - incorrect, or lacking citations.  IOW, I don't see any
>> supportable rationale for removing anything that's there, although one
>> could question the motives of whoever made it a point to call out some
>> concerns about lack of activity in the first paragaph of the article.
>> Nonetheless, I think any attempt to modify that will face opposition.
>>
>> In a related vein, The Guardian recently ran this article titled "Should I
>> Switch From Apache OpenOffice to LibreOffice or Microsoft Office".
>>
>> http://www.theguardian.com/technology/askjack/2015/sep/03/switch-openoffice-libreoffice-or-microsoft-office
>>
>> I don't know if there's any easy way to counter this narrative that's
>> spreading through the press, about AOO being dead/dormant/whatever, or how
>> LO is clearly "the winner", but it's definitely unfortunate to see this
>> kind of stuff spread around so widely.  :-(
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>> This message optimized for indexing by NSA PRISM
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 4:55 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Max,
>>>
>>> On 03 Sep 15, at 16:31, Max Merbald <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi there,
>>>>
>>>> the Engish Wikipedia claims that AOO is dormant. I can't see where they
>>>>
>>> have the information from. The sources they use don't say so. I think
>>> it's
>>> definitely bad for OpenOffice when people think no more is done about it.
>>> The problem is also that LibreOffice has just published its version 5.0
>>> and
>>> is getting ahead of us.
>>>
>>> thanks for the alert.
>>>
>>> Wikipedia is composed by a crowd of editors, and you can change the entry
>>> to reflect the facts.
>>>
>>> So can anyone on this list. Becoming an editor at Wikipedia is not
>>> arduous.
>>>
>>> Louis
>>>
>>>> Max
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>
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Re: Slow but steady, please

Bruce Byfield
On Sunday 13 September 2015 08:33:37 AM Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
 
> On the other hand, there are level-headed folk out there, and you might find
> this heartening:
> <http://www.linuxpromagazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruce-Byfield-s-> Blog/Apache-OpenOffice-Not-Dead-Yet>.
>
> There's a technical error, and I have provided correction in a comment.

Which I have corrected -- and for which I thank you.

And for everyone else out there: if OpenOffice blunders, I will certainly report
it. However, from a narrative point of view, I would much rather tell the
story of a project that overcomes its difficulties and lives to flourish. I like
a happy ending as much as anyone, so please give me one!

--
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com


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Re: Slow but steady, please

Pedro Giffuni
In reply to this post by Dennis E. Hamilton
Hello;

This may sound controversial, and is indeed just IMHO, but I am afraid
that the general Office-suite marketplace is stuck and people shouldn't
expect much more from it.

Basically I find myself repeating the idea of the 90's where the version
of the "brand-labelled-Office-suite-you-are-using" doesn't
matter much as long as they all have basically the same functionality.

Every time I see some discussion about OpenOffice vs LibreOffice, the
subject somehow ends up in the MS ribbon-bar and if someone is going to
implement it or not. We won't do it, and I doubt that LibreOffice will.
Neither project (on their own or even together) has the resources or
interest in running such experiments so perhaps it's time to realize
that the AOO sidebar is the highest UI point in the history of
OpenOffice derivatives and that nothing new is going to come.

Beyond the UI, most changes that can be done have very little
visibility: there are other minor changes that can be done but we
will be focusing on stability and bug fixes. Apache OpenOffice will
continue being the OpenOffice product that people came to love/hate and
are used to.

If you look at the commercial alternatives, they already moved away from
the UI wars and are now focused on the mobile/cloud markets. For AOO
this has implications: one one hand we don't have the type of resources
to offer cloud services and complete with existing alternatives. On the
other hand, the Apache licensing is perfect for someone wanting to do
exactly that.

My personal opinion is that AOO has a bright future if we play our
cards right, but it will probably not be what some people expect.

Again all just IMHO,

Pedro.



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Re: Slow but steady, please

Bruce Byfield
On Monday 14 September 2015 05:18:38 PM Pedro Giffuni wrote:
> Hello;
>
> This may sound controversial, and is indeed just IMHO, but I am afraid
> that the general Office-suite marketplace is stuck and people shouldn't
> expect much more from it.

Have you looked at Calligra Suite? It has some interesting ideas about what a
modern office suite could be. Unfortunately, like so many projects, it suffers
from a lack of developers.
--
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7189 (on Pacific time)
https://brucebyfield.wordpress.com


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Re: Slow but steady, please

Kay Schenk-2
In reply to this post by Pedro Giffuni


On 09/14/2015 03:18 PM, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
> Hello;
>
> This may sound controversial, and is indeed just IMHO, but I am afraid
> that the general Office-suite marketplace is stuck and people shouldn't
> expect much more from it.

I don't find this controversial at all. It sounds rather accurate to me.

>
> Basically I find myself repeating the idea of the 90's where the version
> of the "brand-labelled-Office-suite-you-are-using" doesn't
> matter much as long as they all have basically the same functionality.
>
> Every time I see some discussion about OpenOffice vs LibreOffice, the
> subject somehow ends up in the MS ribbon-bar and if someone is going to
> implement it or not. We won't do it, and I doubt that LibreOffice will.
> Neither project (on their own or even together) has the resources or
> interest in running such experiments so perhaps it's time to realize
> that the AOO sidebar is the highest UI point in the history of
> OpenOffice derivatives and that nothing new is going to come.
>
> Beyond the UI, most changes that can be done have very little
> visibility: there are other minor changes that can be done but we
> will be focusing on stability and bug fixes. Apache OpenOffice will
> continue being the OpenOffice product that people came to love/hate and
> are used to.
>
> If you look at the commercial alternatives, they already moved away from
> the UI wars and are now focused on the mobile/cloud markets. For AOO
> this has implications: one one hand we don't have the type of resources
> to offer cloud services and complete with existing alternatives. On the
> other hand, the Apache licensing is perfect for someone wanting to do
> exactly that.
>
> My personal opinion is that AOO has a bright future if we play our
> cards right, but it will probably not be what some people expect.
>
> Again all just IMHO,
>
> Pedro.

Thanks for your perspectives. I'm optimistic that once we get 4.1.2 out,
we can refocus on new ideas. And, I imagine there are quite a number of
them out there.


--
--------------------------------------------
MzK

“The journey of a thousand miles begins
 with a single step.”
                          --Lao Tzu



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Re: Slow but steady, please

Pedro Giffuni
In reply to this post by Pedro Giffuni
Hi Bruce;

I just looked a bit ...
Calligra does look nice and I see it has advanced quite nicely.

There's probably still the issue of multi-platform support but it
is certainly refreshing to see something different.

Thanks,

Pedro.

On 09/14/15 17:18, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
> Hello;
>
> This may sound controversial, and is indeed just IMHO, but I am afraid
> that the general Office-suite marketplace is stuck and people shouldn't
> expect much more from it.
>
...

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Re: Slow but steady, please

Louis Suárez-Potts-3
Hi,

> On 14 Sep 15, at 20:13, Pedro Giffuni <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Bruce;
>
> I just looked a bit ...
> Calligra does look nice and I see it has advanced quite nicely.
>
> There's probably still the issue of multi-platform support but it
> is certainly refreshing to see something different.

I’ve played around a lot with KOffice, Calligra, and on Linux (KDE) and wished I could use, without encountering the inevitable crash, the durn things on OS X. I think Calligra is great. I love the modularity, love their support of ODF, but wish it were more complete, though it’s frankly good enough. At the Orvieto conference, Inge W., who then led the KOffice team, described the challenges of modularizing the previously monolithic code and making it modular. Far more successful than Mozilla’s efforts, the team succeeded in its goal. At the time, I was hopeful that the same dedication could be applied to OO. Certainly, there were at least two competing architectures to the one we had. But history….

And now KDE and Calligra. One has to wonder, however good the application was, is and will be, how relevant is it? (Yes, I am aware this query applies as well to AOO and all children of OOo.) Another way of putting that query, I suppose, would be, What makes for a relevant suite or set of related applications? I think the obvious answer is something like, "It works with what we’ve got," and "It’s easy to integrate into what we’re thinking about getting."

I would further nuance that with,

* Let’s focus on public sector use. Open government practices are making more and more documents accessible to the public. These can use PDF but for necessarily interactive ones, the choice can be OOXML, HTML, ODF

        * Archival usage
        * Education (for students, by professors/teachers, by admin)

Desired features of all such (and also a raging buzzword, rather ill-defined): Collaboration.

Right now, I don’t think it’s simply about not spending money poorly. I rather think it’s about anticipating use cases and remaining flexible both as a productive environment and as a product.

Louis


>
> Thanks,
>
> Pedro.
>
> On 09/14/15 17:18, Pedro Giffuni wrote:
>> Hello;
>>
>> This may sound controversial, and is indeed just IMHO, but I am afraid
>> that the general Office-suite marketplace is stuck and people shouldn't
>> expect much more from it.
>>


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