Still stuggling with styles and numbering

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Still stuggling with styles and numbering

Alan Chandler
Still struggling with styles and numbering of paragraphs in writer.  I am
getting closer to getting a complete mental picture of what is happening,
but just when I think I have it nailed - I try something and it doesn't
work.  I am clearly doing something strange in that I have managed to crash
openoffice (a hope a report of the problem got sent automatically - if it
got past our firewall).


A number of questions.

1) What is the difference between outline numbering and list numbering.  Are
they completely independent of one another.

2) Following on from the first question, there are two similar but different
dialogs.  The Tools/Outline Numbering and the Format/Bullets and numbering.  
Is the former soley for outline numbering and the latter soley for list
numbering?

3) Following on from the second question - the tools/outline numbering
allows you to allocate a style to each level, where as the format/bullets
and numbering doesn't.  How do the format of list numbering get remembered
in a style (or doesn't it?)

4) When editing a style definition, the numbering tab refers to another
style.  What does this actually do - it seems to point to something with
exactly the same characteritics as the style you are editing.  What
characteristics get inheritied and when?

5) How do you specify in a style (so that it gets remembered) what the style
of numbering is (ie 1,2,3 or a,b,c or i,ii,ii).

6) The "numbering on/off" button on the toolbar seems to affect both outline
and list style numbering.  How does this interact with the menu commands?  
By that I mean what exactly is it switching off and what exactly is it
switching on again when you interact with it.  In particular, when you
toggle it off and on again, all the numbering styles that had been set up in
the two dialog boxes I mention in question 2 seem to get reset to a default
value (1,2,3 ...).  Is this supposed to happen, and why or is it a bug?  Is
it possible somewhere else to define this default value that it gets set to?

5) If I select (F11) the styles and formating dialog and right click on a
style and choose modify and then select the numbering tab.  I then select
the help button.  This gives a help message which says

"Select the outline level that you want to apply to the paragraph.

Numbering Style

Select the Numbering Style that you want to apply to the paragraph. These
styles are also listed in the Styles and Formatting window if you click the
Numbering Style icon.

Edit

Opens a dialog to edit the numbering style."

I don't have an edit button, and this seems to be exactly the button I need
to do the things I am struggling with above.  Where has it gone? - do I need
to do something else to make it appear?
 ----

As you can see quite a lot of questions.  The main thing I want to do is set
up a style in which the indents and the numbering scheme is remembered.  I
don't particularly care whether its an outline numbering scheme or a list
numbering scheme. Is that possible?

A final remark - the numbering on/off button as currently configured seems
lethal.  It can destroy all the formatting in a document.

 

 


 --
Alan Chandler
[hidden email]



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Re: Still stuggling with styles and numbering

Guido Pinkernell
Am Montag, 21. November 2005 14:39 schrieb Alan Chandler:

> 1) What is the difference between outline numbering and list numbering.
> Are they completely independent of one another.

Completely different, completely independent. Outline: Chapters, headlines,
title, subtitle etc etc. List: A sequence of things, thoughts, etc which need
to be counted.

> 2) Following on from the first question, there are two similar but
> different dialogs.  The Tools/Outline Numbering and the Format/Bullets and
> numbering. Is the former soley for outline numbering and the latter soley
> for list numbering?

Yes.

> 3) Following on from the second question - the tools/outline numbering
> allows you to allocate a style to each level, where as the format/bullets
> and numbering doesn't.  How do the format of list numbering get remembered
> in a style (or doesn't it?)

Oh yes it does. F11 opens the stylist. One of the icons is for paragraph
styles (incl. headings etc), one of the others is for numbered/bulletes
styles.

> 4) When editing a style definition, the numbering tab refers to another
> style.  What does this actually do - it seems to point to something with
> exactly the same characteritics as the style you are editing.  What
> characteristics get inheritied and when?

It refers to one of the numbering styles, which all you find actually listed
in the numbering styles (see 3)). So if you decide to turn a paragraph into a
part of a numbered list then it will invoke the numbering style it is
associated to.

> 5) How do you specify in a style (so that it gets remembered) what the
> style of numbering is (ie 1,2,3 or a,b,c or i,ii,ii).

... remembered. What do you mean? Every time you click on the icon "numbered
list" just above the text area? Then you have a problem. For some reason it
hasn't been implemented to redefine the default numbering style "for good".

Can't find the RFE in Issuezilla right now.

> 6) The "numbering on/off" button on the toolbar seems to affect both
> outline and list style numbering.

Does it? It shouldn't affect outline numbering. Although it could (I haven't
checked) change the association to a heading style into an association to
some paragraph style, to be able to change the outline numbering into a
numbered list.  

> How does this interact with the menu
> commands? By that I mean what exactly is it switching off and what exactly
> is it switching on again when you interact with it.  In particular, when
> you toggle it off and on again, all the numbering styles that had been set
> up in the two dialog boxes I mention in question 2 seem to get reset to a
> default value (1,2,3 ...).  Is this supposed to happen, and why or is it a
> bug?  Is it possible somewhere else to define this default value that it
> gets set to?

Maybe this has been answered in 5)

> 5) If I select (F11) the styles and formating dialog and right click on a
> style and choose modify and then select the numbering tab.  I then select
> the help button.  This gives a help message which says
>
> "Select the outline level that you want to apply to the paragraph.
>
> Numbering Style
>
> Select the Numbering Style that you want to apply to the paragraph. These
> styles are also listed in the Styles and Formatting window if you click the
> Numbering Style icon.
>
> Edit
>
> Opens a dialog to edit the numbering style."
>
> I don't have an edit button, and this seems to be exactly the button I need
> to do the things I am struggling with above.  Where has it gone? - do I
> need to do something else to make it appear?

Answered in 3) I hope.

>  ----
>
> As you can see quite a lot of questions.  The main thing I want to do is
> set up a style in which the indents and the numbering scheme is remembered.

Oh well. See 5): No way I'm afraid. I need to find the Issue so that you can
add your votes to have this implemented.

Right. Here it is: http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=9437

Guido

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Re: Still stuggling with styles and numbering

Alan Chandler
Guido Pinkernell writes:

> Am Montag, 21. November 2005 14:39 schrieb Alan Chandler:
>
...
>> 3) Following on from the second question - the tools/outline numbering
>> allows you to allocate a style to each level, where as the format/bullets
>> and numbering doesn't.  How do the format of list numbering get remembered
>> in a style (or doesn't it?)
>
> Oh yes it does. F11 opens the stylist. One of the icons is for paragraph
> styles (incl. headings etc), one of the others is for numbered/bulletes
> styles.
>

I think this is the crux of what I don't understand.

Does this mean that any given paragraph can have a paragraph style AND a
list style AT THE SAME TIME?  If so, that explains it.

Is there anyway you can find out what styles a particular paragraph has
other than the one mentioned in the toolbar at the left hand end?

If not, are you saying that the numbering style replaces the paragraph style
when you hit the numbered list icon?

 

 

 --
Alan Chandler
[hidden email]



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Re: Still stuggling with styles and numbering

J. Magalhães Cruz
Alan,

I think that the numbering/outlining implementation of  OOo is unnecessarily
complicated and rather unintuitive!
Some months ago, I initiated a thread in this list about this same subject
(follow the thread on
http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=users&msgId=2047526; see
below my original message). Unfortunately, most of the readers just read it;
and a couple of users tried to convince me (without success) that it was
justified to have a separation between numbering and paragraph formatting
(stylewise or not). Even if the interfered with each other!!! :-|

Jos�

--<8-------------------------
[users] List/numbering formatting and styles: why are they separated from
paragraph formatting and styles?
 Data: 2005-06-16 21:34
 De: "J. Magalh�es Cruz" <[hidden email]>  (DEEC-FEUP)
 Para: [hidden email]
 
Hello all!
I have always found quite difficult to fully control with ease the usage of
list anf numbering of paragraphs, both by direct formatting and by using
styles.
Before raising an issue in Issuezilla, I would like to ask anyone the
following question:
"Why are list/numbering formatting and styles separated from paragraph
formatting and styles?"

Thanks all
Jos�
---<8------------------------


Dizia Alan Chandler em Segunda 21 Novembro 2005 15:46:

> Guido Pinkernell writes:
> > Am Montag, 21. November 2005 14:39 schrieb Alan Chandler:
>
> ...
>
> >> 3) Following on from the second question - the tools/outline numbering
> >> allows you to allocate a style to each level, where as the
> >> format/bullets and numbering doesn't.  How do the format of list
> >> numbering get remembered in a style (or doesn't it?)
> >
> > Oh yes it does. F11 opens the stylist. One of the icons is for paragraph
> > styles (incl. headings etc), one of the others is for numbered/bulletes
> > styles.
>
> I think this is the crux of what I don't understand.
>
> Does this mean that any given paragraph can have a paragraph style AND a
> list style AT THE SAME TIME?  If so, that explains it.
>
> Is there anyway you can find out what styles a particular paragraph has
> other than the one mentioned in the toolbar at the left hand end?
>
> If not, are you saying that the numbering style replaces the paragraph
> style when you hit the numbered list icon?
>
>
>
>
>
>  --
> Alan Chandler
> [hidden email]

--
J. Magalh�es Cruz --- [hidden email] ---

... free, as in freedom... (Richard Stallman)
... private, as in personal... (jmcruz)
... respect, to all animals... (jmcruz)

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Re: Still stuggling with styles and numbering

Guido Pinkernell
In reply to this post by Alan Chandler
Am Montag, 21. November 2005 16:46 schrieb Alan Chandler:

> Guido Pinkernell writes:
> > Am Montag, 21. November 2005 14:39 schrieb Alan Chandler:
>
> ...
>
> >> 3) Following on from the second question - the tools/outline numbering
> >> allows you to allocate a style to each level, where as the
> >> format/bullets and numbering doesn't.  How do the format of list
> >> numbering get remembered in a style (or doesn't it?)
> >
> > Oh yes it does. F11 opens the stylist. One of the icons is for paragraph
> > styles (incl. headings etc), one of the others is for numbered/bulletes
> > styles.
>
> I think this is the crux of what I don't understand.
>
> Does this mean that any given paragraph can have a paragraph style AND a
> list style AT THE SAME TIME?  If so, that explains it.
>
> Is there anyway you can find out what styles a particular paragraph has
> other than the one mentioned in the toolbar at the left hand end?

Press F11 and browse through the different styles (page, paragraph, character,
lists, frame). The one that, in each list, is highlighted is presently
applied.

> If not, are you saying that the numbering style replaces the paragraph
> style when you hit the numbered list icon?

No. A numbering style is independent of a paragraph style. As is a page style
or a character style. However you can associate a numbering style to a
paragraph style, the former _additionally_ being applied when you start a
numbered list while the paragraph style is still in use (and of course the
page style etc).

Which makes sense since a numbering style doesn't organize all settings of a
paragraph, like e.g. font size etc. A numbering style only organizes
numbering settings, like indents.

At least it makes sense to me. ;)

Guido

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Re: Still stuggling with styles and numbering

Alan Chandler
In reply to this post by J. Magalhães Cruz
On Monday 21 Nov 2005 16:17, J. Magalhães Cruz wrote:

> Alan,
>
> I think that the numbering/outlining implementation of  OOo is
> unnecessarily complicated and rather unintuitive!
> Some months ago, I initiated a thread in this list about this same subject
> (follow the thread on
> http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=users&msgId=2047526; see
> below my original message). Unfortunately, most of the readers just read
> it; and a couple of users tried to convince me (without success) that it
> was justified to have a separation between numbering and paragraph
> formatting (stylewise or not). Even if the interfered with each other!!!
> :-|
I started to read the thread.  I can see where its going.  I will follow it
some more in a minute.  I am not sure sure I agree with you, but I will
follow the thread through

I think part of the problem is there there is something wrong with the
implementation (see below), and the help files assume you already know what
you are doing.  Just as an example of the unintuitive mess you can get into,
I attach a little jpg file.

Just in case it gets filtered out from this mailing list let me explain what
it shows.

It is an indented paragraph in which the first line consist of a definition, a
tab and then the explanation of the definition.  This is formatted so that
the first line's left margin is at 1cm and the subsequent lines are all
indented to 6cm.

To that I have attempted to add numbering.  I want two digits, where the first
digit comes from the previous heading - the second is sequentially numbered
throughout the section.  So I added the style into the Tools, outline
numbering.  Now look where it left me.

First, the margin markers in the ruler do not line up with the text.  Secondly
the number seems to lined up with the first line paragraph margin - the help
file tells me it should be lined up with the left margin of the page.

The first line has 1.2 "Agreement"<tab>Means the signature ....  - Some text
which should be lined up with the second lines and beyond.  BUT it is
impossible to make it so without adding another tab.  That is because the
first line tab stops at where the margin ought to have been rather where it
is now.

Lastly, notice how this is numbered 1.2 and the line just above it is numbered
1. Definitions.

Why that is still 1.2 is beyond me and not 1.1 is beyond me.


--
Alan Chandler
http://www.chandlerfamily.org.uk
Open Source. It's the difference between trust and antitrust.


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Re: Still stuggling with styles and numbering

Alan Chandler
On Monday 21 Nov 2005 21:33, Alan Chandler wrote:

> I think part of the problem is there there is something wrong with the
> implementation (see below), and the help files assume you already know what
> you are doing.  Just as an example of the unintuitive mess you can get
> into, I attach a little jpg file.
>
> Just in case it gets filtered out from this mailing list let me explain
> what it shows.

It did get filtered out - so here is a link to it on my web site

http://www.chandlerfamily.org.uk/photos/v/Alan/problem.jpg.html


--
Alan Chandler
http://www.chandlerfamily.org.uk
Open Source. It's the difference between trust and antitrust.

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Re: Still stuggling with styles and numbering

Dan Lewis-6
In reply to this post by Guido Pinkernell
On Monday 21 November 2005 12:49 pm, Guido Pinkernell wrote:

> Am Montag, 21. November 2005 16:46 schrieb Alan Chandler:
> > Guido Pinkernell writes:
> > > Am Montag, 21. November 2005 14:39 schrieb Alan Chandler:
> >
> > ...
> >
> > >> 3) Following on from the second question - the tools/outline numbering
> > >> allows you to allocate a style to each level, where as the
> > >> format/bullets and numbering doesn't.  How do the format of list
> > >> numbering get remembered in a style (or doesn't it?)
> > >
> > > Oh yes it does. F11 opens the stylist. One of the icons is for
> > > paragraph styles (incl. headings etc), one of the others is for
> > > numbered/bulletes styles.
> >
> > I think this is the crux of what I don't understand.
> >
> > Does this mean that any given paragraph can have a paragraph style AND a
> > list style AT THE SAME TIME?  If so, that explains it.
> >
> > Is there anyway you can find out what styles a particular paragraph has
> > other than the one mentioned in the toolbar at the left hand end?
>
> Press F11 and browse through the different styles (page, paragraph,
> character, lists, frame). The one that, in each list, is highlighted is
> presently applied.
>
> > If not, are you saying that the numbering style replaces the paragraph
> > style when you hit the numbered list icon?
>
> No. A numbering style is independent of a paragraph style. As is a page
> style or a character style. However you can associate a numbering style to
> a paragraph style, the former _additionally_ being applied when you start a
> numbered list while the paragraph style is still in use (and of course the
> page style etc).
>
> Which makes sense since a numbering style doesn't organize all settings of
> a paragraph, like e.g. font size etc. A numbering style only organizes
> numbering settings, like indents.
>
> At least it makes sense to me. ;)
>
> Guido

    Please allow me to ask a stupid question. Have you studied the chapters on
Styles in both the Getting Started Guide and the Writer's Guide? Is so, what
do we need to do to make this information clearer?

Dan

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Re: Still stuggling with styles and numbering

John P. Fisher
In reply to this post by Alan Chandler
Alan,
Your jpg shows an indented paragraph style with a negative first line
indent ( outdent). It's numbered at outline level 2 ( 1.2 )

This will work fine if you modify Heading2 with the required
indents/outdents, and then go to outline numbering and set level 2
( which will be attached to Heading2 ) to the correct numbering format.

you probably can also establish a true list style with your numbering
format and use that instead on Heading2.

Since you must have tried this, I don't get the problem?

One concept that some folks on this thread don't seem to quite get, is
that this sort of numbering is considered "outline numbering" by virtue
of the levels in the number ( 1.2) It assumes there is a hierarchy
starting with Heading1 and usually there will be a few more levels
lower.

For those who want numbered paragraphs, those can be applied to any
paragraph style, just don't mess with the built-in Heading styles. IIRC
this usage parallels Word and Framemaker, and in fact I can't see my way
to a different design.

clarification I hope?
John


On Tue, 2005-11-22 at 07:16 +0000, Alan Chandler wrote:

>
> It did get filtered out - so here is a link to it on my web site
>
> http://www.chandlerfamily.org.uk/photos/v/Alan/problem.jpg.html
>
>
--
John Fisher at Znyx Networks
Santa Barbara office


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Re: Still stuggling with styles and numbering

Alan Chandler
In reply to this post by Dan Lewis-6
On Tuesday 22 Nov 2005 16:22, Dan Lewis wrote:

>
>     Please allow me to ask a stupid question. Have you studied the chapters
> on Styles in both the Getting Started Guide and the Writer's Guide? Is so,
> what do we need to do to make this information clearer?

Let me ask a stupid one back in return (and I assume the question is directed
at me, since I was the one starting who the thread).

What Getting Started Guide?

I only have the help files - and if you mean the text in the section

Text Documents/Formating Text Documents/Templates and Styles

Then yes I have read them - so let me try and explain why I think they need
some enhancement.

The introductionary paragraph is extremely high level - but the next level
down is at the level of "if you want to do this - do this".  The problem I
found is that I didn't want to do exactly what was being suggested but
something slightly different, so what I was looking for was an overview of
the concepts so that I could take those and figure out what to do next.

If you look at the questions further up this thread, these are precisely the
sorts of things I couldn't find in the help files.  In this particular topic
the important things are

- I had not appreciated that fact that there were paragraph styles and list
styles and that any given paragraph can apparently have both.
- That the list style idents OVERRIDE (incidently this seems to me a major
problem from useability point of view) those in the paragraph.
- That the list style couldn't define the form of the numbers (ie a sequence
1,2,3 is defaulted to - you can't specify that this is i,ii,iii or a,b,c)
- There is no real help in separating out the concept of outline numbering
from list numbering with support to say when you should use one rather than
the other
[I am still unclear - because I think what I want to do is not possible -
yesterday, after two days of wasted effort went back to Microsoft Word and
completed the task in about 2 hours

There are three separate things I was trying to do, which seems to be mutually
exclusive.

A. create subnumbered paragraphs under a heading, so I have something like

1. This is a heading

1.1  This is the first paragraph

1.2  THis is the second paragraph

2.   This is another heading

2.1 This is a third paragraph

For this, I seems that outline numbering is the best thing (although you
cannot apparently store this into a style - I have yet to understand whether
I could have built a template with this setup)

B. Have more than one style for differrent sub sections

So instead of 2.1 above I would have

2.  This is another heading

a This is the third paragraph

b This is the forth
...


In this case the paragraphs in section 1 would have style "type1" and in
section 2 paragraphs would have style "type2".  Unfortunately outline
numbering seems to only allow one paragraph style per level - so I then tried
going over to lists - effectively got completely lost at this point.

C. Use indenting to control the margins

I had some definition text of the form


Definition<tab>This is an explanation of the text going on to
---------------------several lines

(the --------- is supposed to be white space that causes the second line to
line up with the "This is an explanation...")

This works well if you set a paragraph indent of (say) 6 cm and a first line
ident of -5cm.

If you add numbering to this you get

1.2  Defininition <tab>   This is an explanation of the text going on to
                                                 several lines

(See a picture of this at  
http://www.chandlerfamily.org.uk/photos/v/Alan/problem.jpg.html )

The second line no longer lines up with the first, because the numbering half
moves the margins (which is why the second line moves in - but the tab stop
for the first line remains at where the margins are on the ruler)

]



--
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Re: Still stuggling with styles and numbering

Alan Chandler
In reply to this post by John P. Fisher
On Wednesday 23 Nov 2005 00:18, john fisher wrote:

> Alan,
> Your jpg shows an indented paragraph style with a negative first line
> indent ( outdent). It's numbered at outline level 2 ( 1.2 )
>
> This will work fine if you modify Heading2 with the required
> indents/outdents, and then go to outline numbering and set level 2
> ( which will be attached to Heading2 ) to the correct numbering format.
>
> you probably can also establish a true list style with your numbering
> format and use that instead on Heading2.
>
> Since you must have tried this, I don't get the problem?

I know that doing it from scratch the simply way you don't get the problem,
But I got into the above situation by unknown means (lots of putting list
styles on and taking them off).  And now I am there I can't undo it.

(I presume you see how the margins shown in the ruler are not the same as the
margins on the page)

One think I did was attach another style to the numbering scheme.  Is there
something magical about Heading 2 - other than its the default

>
> One concept that some folks on this thread don't seem to quite get, is
> that this sort of numbering is considered "outline numbering" by virtue
> of the levels in the number ( 1.2) It assumes there is a hierarchy
> starting with Heading1 and usually there will be a few more levels
> lower.
>
> For those who want numbered paragraphs, those can be applied to any
> paragraph style, just don't mess with the built-in Heading styles. IIRC
> this usage parallels Word and Framemaker, and in fact I can't see my way
> to a different design.
>

I think this issue is how numbering style indents somehow overwrite the
indents of the paragraph style - yet don't (for instance) hold the numbering
format.

The other issue, which is a bit strange is just what the numbering on/off
does,  All works well if you just stick with the defaults, but as soon as you
wander of that straight and narrow it seems a bit strange


--
Alan Chandler
http://www.chandlerfamily.org.uk
Open Source. It's the difference between trust and antitrust.

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Re: Still stuggling with styles and numbering

Guido Pinkernell
In reply to this post by Dan Lewis-6
Am Dienstag, 22. November 2005 17:22 schrieb Dan Lewis:
> On Monday 21 November 2005 12:49 pm, Guido Pinkernell wrote:
> > Am Montag, 21. November 2005 16:46 schrieb Alan Chandler:
> > > Guido Pinkernell writes:

> > At least it makes sense to me. ;)
> >
> > Guido
>
>     Please allow me to ask a stupid question. Have you studied the chapters
> on Styles in both the Getting Started Guide and the Writer's Guide? Is so,
> what do we need to do to make this information clearer?
>
> Dan

Who are you talking to, Dan? It's not me who needs help.

Guido

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Re: Still stuggling with styles and numbering

G. Roderick Singleton-2
In reply to this post by Alan Chandler
On Thu, 2005-11-24 at 07:07 +0000, Alan Chandler wrote:

> On Tuesday 22 Nov 2005 16:22, Dan Lewis wrote:
>
> >
> >     Please allow me to ask a stupid question. Have you studied the chapters
> > on Styles in both the Getting Started Guide and the Writer's Guide? Is so,
> > what do we need to do to make this information clearer?
>
> Let me ask a stupid one back in return (and I assume the question is directed
> at me, since I was the one starting who the thread).
>
> What Getting Started Guide?
>
> I only have the help files - and if you mean the text in the section

How about the link to the doc project that is in the "In the media"
section of http://www.openoffice.org/ since October 21st for the guides
and manuals you want?


[snipped]
--
PLEASE KEEP MESSAGES ON THE LIST.
OpenOffice.org Documentation Co-Lead
http://documentation.openoffice.org/ 


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Re: Still stuggling with styles and numbering

Alan Chandler
On Saturday 26 Nov 2005 12:31, G. Roderick Singleton wrote:

> On Thu, 2005-11-24 at 07:07 +0000, Alan Chandler wrote:
> > On Tuesday 22 Nov 2005 16:22, Dan Lewis wrote:
> > >     Please allow me to ask a stupid question. Have you studied the
> > > chapters on Styles in both the Getting Started Guide and the Writer's
> > > Guide? Is so, what do we need to do to make this information clearer?
> >
> > Let me ask a stupid one back in return (and I assume the question is
> > directed at me, since I was the one starting who the thread).
> >
> > What Getting Started Guide?
> >
> > I only have the help files - and if you mean the text in the section
>
> How about the link to the doc project that is in the "In the media"
> section of http://www.openoffice.org/ since October 21st for the guides
> and manuals you want?
>
>
> [snipped]

I confess to have missed that when I was looking recently (and I did
originally look on the web site, for documents).  Nevertheless I have a
distinct recollection that  I have seen some of the words on styles in the
getting started guide - so perhaps its something I came across in browsing a
while ago

In any event, I'll go and have a good read.



--
Alan Chandler
http://www.chandlerfamily.org.uk
Open Source. It's the difference between trust and antitrust.

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Re: Still struggling with styles and numbering

Dan Lewis-6
In reply to this post by Guido Pinkernell
On Thursday 24 November 2005 08:30 am, Guido Pinkernell wrote:

> Am Dienstag, 22. November 2005 17:22 schrieb Dan Lewis:
> > On Monday 21 November 2005 12:49 pm, Guido Pinkernell wrote:
> > > Am Montag, 21. November 2005 16:46 schrieb Alan Chandler:
> > > > Guido Pinkernell writes:
> > >
> > > At least it makes sense to me. ;)
> > >
> > > Guido
> >
> >     Please allow me to ask a stupid question. Have you studied the
> > chapters on Styles in both the Getting Started Guide and the Writer's
> > Guide? Is so, what do we need to do to make this information clearer?
> >
> > Dan
>
> Who are you talking to, Dan? It's not me who needs help.
>
> Guido
    Before anyone else gets the wrong idea, I was talking to myself. I called
it a stupid question because most likely someone working with styles would
have done some searching about styles first before asking the question.
Perhaps I should have used the term "simple question" instead of "stupid
question". I apologize to anyone who might have been offended by the language
I used.

Dan

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Re: Still stuggling with styles and numbering

J. Magalhães Cruz
In reply to this post by Alan Chandler
I am reposting a previous message, because, after 3 days the original message
could not be delivered to the mailing list server.
At this time (several other messages have been posted on the same thread), it
does not add much to help Alan, except to support him, emphasizing that the
way OOo handles list numbering is rather poor.

And yes, I have read several OOo docs on styling and numbering, but I find
them rather simple (naive?) and not helping much if you want to do something
slightly less straightforward.
And I also find, here and everywhere, that if a user has a lot of trouble and
has to do a lot of reading in order to use a simple feature of a program,
than, probably, the program or feature is not well implemented.
Jos�


Dizia Alan Chandler em Segunda 21 Novembro 2005 21:33:
(...)
> I think part of the problem is there there is something wrong with the
> implementation (see below), and the help files assume you already know what
> you are doing.  Just as an example of the unintuitive mess you can get
> into, I attach a little jpg file.
>
> Just in case it gets filtered out from this mailing list let me explain
> what it shows.
(...)

I also think there is an implementation problem of automatic numbering in
OOo :-(:-( . Your experience (and the example you described) show that quite
clearly: besides the incorrectness of the numbering, the indentation
conflicts are extremely annoying and difficult to resolve. (I have also
published some examples/demonstrations of problems similar to the one you
described, when my discussion thread was active.)

But I also think there is a design flaw: there will always be problems upon
applying an independent numbering "styling" over a paragraph "styling", which
has its own indentations (which get interfered beyond repair). It would be
much easier, I think, to include numbering styling _inside_ paragraph styling
(a field amongst others, like text flow or something). This already happens
on a paragraph field that links to a numbering style; unfortunately, the
numbering styles are _independent_ and, as implemented, severely interfere
with paragraph indentation. :-(:-(

(The situation is different for character and paragraph styling; upon applying
a character style on a letter inside a paragraph, the only thing that is
changed is the style of that specific letter; nothing else is changed.
In the case of automatic numbering, the same could perhaps be done _if_ the
numbering style would _not_ include indentation formatting, thereby not
colliding with paragraph indentation formatting!)

Jos�

--
J. Magalh�es Cruz       --- [hidden email] ---

... free, as in freedom... (Richard Stallman)
... private, as in personal... (jmcruz)
... respect, to all animals... (jmcruz)


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