The confusion of TAB order modified by "Arrange" action and "Navigator dialog" in Presentation

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The confusion of TAB order modified by "Arrange" action and "Navigator dialog" in Presentation

Xing X Li
Hi, all,

Presentation's navigator dialog has supported to drag & drop the object to
modify the TAB order. Also the "Arrange" action in context menu can also
modify the TAB order. If user use both "Arrange" and "Navigator" to modify
the TAB order, the TAB order will be confused.

I also found different behavior on order in 3 editors: In Word, if I
arrange the drawing object to back/front, the order in navigator dialog
won't be changed, also the TAB order won't be changed. In Presentation, if
I arrange the drawing object to back/front, the order in navigator dialog
won't be changed, but the TAB order will be changed. In Spreadsheet, if I
arrange the drawing object to back/front, both the order in navigator
dialog and TAB order will be changed.

My question is: What is the correct object order in navigator dialog? The
TAB order or z-index order?

In my opinion, the navigator dialog should only change the TAB order, the
Arrange should only change the Z-Index order and it should NOT change TAB
order. Also I discussed this offline with Malte and he suggested me to
post this topic here. We all think that the Arrange operation should only
impact Z-Order, and the TAB order can only be impacted by Navigator
dialog. Currently, I can't set correct TAB order and Z-Order separately
unless I insert the objects initially with the desired Z-Order and won't
use Arrange operation.

Malte also provided some reference, for your reference.

We thought it would make sense to have a logical tab order which doesn't
necessarily match the z-Order.

See page 24 here:
http://www.slideshare.net/Malte.Timmermann/openofficeorg-and-odf-accessibility-ooocon-2006-presentation

Thanks a lot.

Best Regards

Xing Li (李 兴)
Lotus Symphony Common App and Performance, IBM China Software Development
Lab, Beijing
Email: [hidden email]  Tel: (8610)82452799   Fax: (8610)82452887
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Re: The confusion of TAB order modified by "Arrange" action and "Navigator dialog" in Presentation

Malte Timmermann
I fully agree with the proposal:
Navigator => Modify tab order only
Arrange => Modify z-order only (*)

* side effect: IIRC, the default tab order is the z-order.
So if the tab order was never manipulated, it might be fine that
arranging objects affects the tab order, because the author probably
doesn't care about a specific tab order.
But it might also be reasonable to even keep the old tab order in this
case, which basically means default tab order == object insertion order.
Might result in unnecessarily overhead for keeping a tab order which is
of no special mean.

Opinions?

Malte.


Xing X Li wrote, On 12/07/09 10:37:

> Hi, all,
>
> Presentation's navigator dialog has supported to drag & drop the object to
> modify the TAB order. Also the "Arrange" action in context menu can also
> modify the TAB order. If user use both "Arrange" and "Navigator" to modify
> the TAB order, the TAB order will be confused.
>
> I also found different behavior on order in 3 editors: In Word, if I
> arrange the drawing object to back/front, the order in navigator dialog
> won't be changed, also the TAB order won't be changed. In Presentation, if
> I arrange the drawing object to back/front, the order in navigator dialog
> won't be changed, but the TAB order will be changed. In Spreadsheet, if I
> arrange the drawing object to back/front, both the order in navigator
> dialog and TAB order will be changed.
>
> My question is: What is the correct object order in navigator dialog? The
> TAB order or z-index order?
>
> In my opinion, the navigator dialog should only change the TAB order, the
> Arrange should only change the Z-Index order and it should NOT change TAB
> order. Also I discussed this offline with Malte and he suggested me to
> post this topic here. We all think that the Arrange operation should only
> impact Z-Order, and the TAB order can only be impacted by Navigator
> dialog. Currently, I can't set correct TAB order and Z-Order separately
> unless I insert the objects initially with the desired Z-Order and won't
> use Arrange operation.
>
> Malte also provided some reference, for your reference.
>
> We thought it would make sense to have a logical tab order which doesn't
> necessarily match the z-Order.
>
> See page 24 here:
> http://www.slideshare.net/Malte.Timmermann/openofficeorg-and-odf-accessibility-ooocon-2006-presentation
>
> Thanks a lot.
>
> Best Regards
>
> Xing Li (李 兴)
> Lotus Symphony Common App and Performance, IBM China Software Development
> Lab, Beijing
> Email: [hidden email]  Tel: (8610)82452799   Fax: (8610)82452887

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Re: The confusion of TAB order modified by "Arrange" action and "Navigator dialog" in Presentation

Xing X Li
Thanks Malte !

My opinion is still to let navigator to modify TAB order and Arrange to
modify z-order separately.
In your side effect, if user doesn't care about the TAB order, I think it
will be simpler (at least in code) not to change the TAB order in Arrange
operation. Otherwise, we can't satisfy the requirement of changing both
TAB order and Z-Order at the same time.


Best Regards

Xing Li (李 兴)
Lotus Symphony Common App and Performance, IBM China Software Development
Lab, Beijing
Email: [hidden email]  Tel: (8610)82452799   Fax: (8610)82452887



From:
Malte Timmermann <[hidden email]>
To:
[hidden email]
Date:
2009-12-09 19:08
Subject:
Re: [ui-dev] The confusion of TAB order modified by "Arrange" action and
"Navigator dialog" in Presentation



I fully agree with the proposal:
Navigator => Modify tab order only
Arrange => Modify z-order only (*)

* side effect: IIRC, the default tab order is the z-order.
So if the tab order was never manipulated, it might be fine that
arranging objects affects the tab order, because the author probably
doesn't care about a specific tab order.
But it might also be reasonable to even keep the old tab order in this
case, which basically means default tab order == object insertion order.
Might result in unnecessarily overhead for keeping a tab order which is
of no special mean.

Opinions?

Malte.


Xing X Li wrote, On 12/07/09 10:37:
> Hi, all,
>
> Presentation's navigator dialog has supported to drag & drop the object
to
> modify the TAB order. Also the "Arrange" action in context menu can also

> modify the TAB order. If user use both "Arrange" and "Navigator" to
modify
> the TAB order, the TAB order will be confused.
>
> I also found different behavior on order in 3 editors: In Word, if I
> arrange the drawing object to back/front, the order in navigator dialog
> won't be changed, also the TAB order won't be changed. In Presentation,
if
> I arrange the drawing object to back/front, the order in navigator
dialog
> won't be changed, but the TAB order will be changed. In Spreadsheet, if
I
> arrange the drawing object to back/front, both the order in navigator
> dialog and TAB order will be changed.
>
> My question is: What is the correct object order in navigator dialog?
The
> TAB order or z-index order?
>
> In my opinion, the navigator dialog should only change the TAB order,
the
> Arrange should only change the Z-Index order and it should NOT change
TAB
> order. Also I discussed this offline with Malte and he suggested me to
> post this topic here. We all think that the Arrange operation should
only
> impact Z-Order, and the TAB order can only be impacted by Navigator
> dialog. Currently, I can't set correct TAB order and Z-Order separately
> unless I insert the objects initially with the desired Z-Order and won't

> use Arrange operation.
>
> Malte also provided some reference, for your reference.
>
> We thought it would make sense to have a logical tab order which doesn't

> necessarily match the z-Order.
>
> See page 24 here:
>
http://www.slideshare.net/Malte.Timmermann/openofficeorg-and-odf-accessibility-ooocon-2006-presentation

>
> Thanks a lot.
>
> Best Regards
>
> Xing Li (李 兴)
> Lotus Symphony Common App and Performance, IBM China Software
Development
> Lab, Beijing
> Email: [hidden email]  Tel: (8610)82452799   Fax: (8610)82452887

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Re: The confusion of TAB order modified by "Arrange" action and "Navigator dialog" in Presentation

Malte Timmermann
Hi Xing Li,

Xing X Li wrote, On 12/14/09 02:56:
> Thanks Malte !
>
> My opinion is still to let navigator to modify TAB order and Arrange to
> modify z-order separately.

Sure.

> In your side effect, if user doesn't care about the TAB order, I think
> it will be simpler (at least in code) not to change the TAB order in
> Arrange operation.

I don't think so. If the user doesn't care, it is actually easier to not
keep it.

Keeping the tab order means to have an extra list. I guess that extra
list normally doesn't exist, because the insertion order or the z-order
is used per default.
In the moment the list exist, the information also needs to be made
persistent.
But I might be wrong with this implementation detail - the impress team
should know better.

> Otherwise, we can't satisfy the requirement of
> changing both TAB order and Z-Order at the same time.

We can. As I said, the side effect only exists when the user never
touches any tab order. Once the tab order was manipulated, arranging
objects won't change the tab order anymore.

In the end, I don't think it's critical how we handle the case that
somebody manipulates z-order w/o ever manipulating the tab order.
Manipulating the tab order is a feature. If the user doesn't make use of
the feature, tab order doesn't need to be persistent.


Malte.


>
>
> Best Regards
>
> Xing Li (李 兴)
> Lotus Symphony Common App and Performance, IBM China Software
> Development Lab, Beijing
> Email: [hidden email]  Tel: (8610)82452799   Fax: (8610)82452887
>
>
> From: Malte Timmermann <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: 2009-12-09 19:08
> Subject: Re: [ui-dev] The confusion of TAB order modified by "Arrange"
> action and "Navigator dialog" in Presentation
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> I fully agree with the proposal:
> Navigator => Modify tab order only
> Arrange => Modify z-order only (*)
>
> * side effect: IIRC, the default tab order is the z-order.
> So if the tab order was never manipulated, it might be fine that
> arranging objects affects the tab order, because the author probably
> doesn't care about a specific tab order.
> But it might also be reasonable to even keep the old tab order in this
> case, which basically means default tab order == object insertion order.
> Might result in unnecessarily overhead for keeping a tab order which is
> of no special mean.
>
> Opinions?
>
> Malte.
>
>
> Xing X Li wrote, On 12/07/09 10:37:
>> Hi, all,
>>
>> Presentation's navigator dialog has supported to drag & drop the
> object to
>> modify the TAB order. Also the "Arrange" action in context menu can also
>> modify the TAB order. If user use both "Arrange" and "Navigator" to
> modify
>> the TAB order, the TAB order will be confused.
>>
>> I also found different behavior on order in 3 editors: In Word, if I
>> arrange the drawing object to back/front, the order in navigator dialog
>> won't be changed, also the TAB order won't be changed. In
> Presentation, if
>> I arrange the drawing object to back/front, the order in navigator dialog
>> won't be changed, but the TAB order will be changed. In Spreadsheet, if I
>> arrange the drawing object to back/front, both the order in navigator
>> dialog and TAB order will be changed.
>>
>> My question is: What is the correct object order in navigator dialog? The
>> TAB order or z-index order?
>>
>> In my opinion, the navigator dialog should only change the TAB order, the
>> Arrange should only change the Z-Index order and it should NOT change TAB
>> order. Also I discussed this offline with Malte and he suggested me to
>> post this topic here. We all think that the Arrange operation should only
>> impact Z-Order, and the TAB order can only be impacted by Navigator
>> dialog. Currently, I can't set correct TAB order and Z-Order separately
>> unless I insert the objects initially with the desired Z-Order and won't
>> use Arrange operation.
>>
>> Malte also provided some reference, for your reference.
>>
>> We thought it would make sense to have a logical tab order which doesn't
>> necessarily match the z-Order.
>>
>> See page 24 here:
>>
> http://www.slideshare.net/Malte.Timmermann/openofficeorg-and-odf-accessibility-ooocon-2006-presentation
>>
>> Thanks a lot.
>>
>> Best Regards
>>
>> Xing Li (李 兴)
>> Lotus Symphony Common App and Performance, IBM China Software Development
>> Lab, Beijing
>> Email: [hidden email]  Tel: (8610)82452799   Fax: (8610)82452887
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
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