Website: proposal for new contributors page

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Website: proposal for new contributors page

Aivaras Stepukonis
I'd like to share with you a proposal for adding to the website a page
dedicated to contributors.

For an example, please, see
"http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors".

The webpage should be accessible from the navigation bar (i.e., Product
| Download | Support | ... | Contributors).

The webpage is intended for the world at large, not the contributors'
community (we have directories of volunteers in the Wiki for this). It
is meant to increase our chances to be seen as contributors and to build
social bridges to the external world by providing concise information
about ourselves as volunteers and contributors.

What do you think?

Regards,
Aivaras



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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page

Louis Suárez-Potts-3

> On 23 Jan 2015, at 11:03, Aivaras Stepukonis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I'd like to share with you a proposal for adding to the website a page dedicated to contributors.
>
> For an example, please, see "http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors".
>
> The webpage should be accessible from the navigation bar (i.e., Product | Download | Support | ... | Contributors).
>
> The webpage is intended for the world at large, not the contributors' community (we have directories of volunteers in the Wiki for this). It is meant to increase our chances to be seen as contributors and to build social bridges to the external world by providing concise information about ourselves as volunteers and contributors.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Regards,
> Aivaras
>

It's an interesting idea but a) I think this post ought to be to the dev@ list or marketing@; and b) we currently use http://www.openoffice.org/welcome/credits.html, which is referred to by the OpenOffice splash screen (I think) and "About" screen and probably elsewhere (at one point, I think it was listed in the marketing project, download, etc.). In general, I'm reluctant to add new or change existing pages unless there's a compelling reason to, as that way bitrot lies. However, we can also add more pages that refer to those lists.

louis
>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page

Aivaras Stepukonis
The reason for the page is to to make contributors more visible to local
users for networking opportunities. All this at the local level.

Since joining the community two or so years ago I have been approached
as a contributor and a localizer only once. There may be many reasons
for this, but one of them is we're (working contributors) are not
visible for the general public (non-contributing folks who stop to flip
a few pages without delving any deeper).

Please, note I'm suggesting the contributor page to be part of a local
subsite (fostering contact sharing within an ethnic and/or linguistic
locale). It is not meant to be generic or historical.

If we, physical contributors, cannot be contacted here by the general
public it will happen somewhere else. I'd rather see the Lithuanian
subsite becoming the hub for all matters (and thus Internet traffic)
concerning the Lithuanian version of AOO and not some external site such
as "http://openoffice.lt/" that uses the address and the name of
OpenOffice to promote LibreOffice.

How did that come about? Well the enthusiasm of the maintainers of the
aforementioned website for one product (AOO) at an earlier time turned
into enthusiasm for another product (LO) at a later time. The chances
for such vicissitudes of life would have been minimized had it all been
happening under "http://www.openoffice.org/lt/".

I find it rather paradoxical to have a webpage for the contacts of
professional (paid?) consultants
("http://www.openoffice.org/bizdev/consultants.html") and not have an
equivalent for volunteering contributors. Don't you?

Regards,
Aivaras


2015.01.23 21:10, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:

>> On 23 Jan 2015, at 11:03, Aivaras Stepukonis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I'd like to share with you a proposal for adding to the website a page dedicated to contributors.
>>
>> For an example, please, see "http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors".
>>
>> The webpage should be accessible from the navigation bar (i.e., Product | Download | Support | ... | Contributors).
>>
>> The webpage is intended for the world at large, not the contributors' community (we have directories of volunteers in the Wiki for this). It is meant to increase our chances to be seen as contributors and to build social bridges to the external world by providing concise information about ourselves as volunteers and contributors.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Aivaras
>>
> It's an interesting idea but a) I think this post ought to be to the dev@ list or marketing@; and b) we currently use http://www.openoffice.org/welcome/credits.html, which is referred to by the OpenOffice splash screen (I think) and "About" screen and probably elsewhere (at one point, I think it was listed in the marketing project, download, etc.). In general, I'm reluctant to add new or change existing pages unless there's a compelling reason to, as that way bitrot lies. However, we can also add more pages that refer to those lists.
>
> louis
>>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page

Louis Suárez-Potts-3

> On 23 Jan 2015, at 14:57, Aivaras Stepukonis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I find it rather paradoxical to have a webpage for the contacts of professional (paid?) consultants ("http://www.openoffice.org/bizdev/consultants.html") and not have an equivalent for volunteering contributors. Don't you?


Yes, that's why we (and mostly I drove this) created the original page honouring all the contributors. Please: I'm not saying that those who contribute ought not to be given a page and that that page ought not to be local, if that's desired. Quite the opposite. Rather, I'm simply not wanting any page created with the best of intentions to be abandoned, lost, if the originator of it loses interest or otherwise departs the project. That's my point.

A similar point was raised, most recently, I thin, in 2012. The issue was listing all contributors. Okay—but the problem noted was that such a list, as Rory and Rob put it, would almost always be out of date for someone, and better to thank a generic "all" than to identify, however desirable that would be in the abstract.

See: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201203.mbox/browser

Previous incarnations of native-language sites listed contributors; there was no reason not to, but also no compulsion to do so, unless the contributor insisted upon it, so each did so as resources afforded.

As to putting it on the dev@ list, the reason I suggested that was to include more, not fewer people. If you think that l10n (or any other list) works better for your goals, then go ahead.

Louis


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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page

YoheY - OpenOffice
In reply to this post by Aivaras Stepukonis
It seems to be a good idea.
When I started my testing with the language selector, I wrote my ask for
help here, to the l10n.
Some localizer of this project wrote back and others not.
i did not even know if there was a 'living' contributor for a given
language to ask for help from them directly or not.
I have to 'hunt' for newcomers' mails or have to dig the l10n archive if
I want to find a person to help me with their given language.
By the help of such a page like Aivaras mentioned, I should only take a
look at the list and could get the help from the right person 'immediately'.
So, it would be useful for me.

To build a 'social bridge' to the world might generate a much more
higher traffic on our mailboxes, but who knows... I think it's worth a try.



On 2015-01-23 17:03, Aivaras Stepukonis wrote:

> I'd like to share with you a proposal for adding to the website a page
> dedicated to contributors.
>
> For an example, please, see
> "http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors".
>
> The webpage should be accessible from the navigation bar (i.e.,
> Product | Download | Support | ... | Contributors).
>
> The webpage is intended for the world at large, not the contributors'
> community (we have directories of volunteers in the Wiki for this). It
> is meant to increase our chances to be seen as contributors and to
> build social bridges to the external world by providing concise
> information about ourselves as volunteers and contributors.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Regards,
> Aivaras
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>


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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page

Louis Suárez-Potts-3


> Begin forwarded message:
>
> Reply-To: [hidden email]
> Date: 23 Jan 2015 17:33:32 -0500
> From: YoheY - OpenOffice <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
>
> It seems to be a good idea.
> When I started my testing with the language selector, I wrote my ask for help here, to the l10n.
> Some localizer of this project wrote back and others not.
> i did not even know if there was a 'living' contributor for a given language to ask for help from them directly or not.
> I have to 'hunt' for newcomers' mails or have to dig the l10n archive if I want to find a person to help me with their given language.
> By the help of such a page like Aivaras mentioned, I should only take a look at the list and could get the help from the right person 'immediately'.
> So, it would be useful for me.
>
> To build a 'social bridge' to the world might generate a much more higher traffic on our mailboxes, but who knows... I think it's worth a try.
>

I'm curious. Do you think it would be worthwhile to bing back a version of the old native-language sub-projects? These were dedicated areas in the user's native language whose focus & point was to reach out to the local (physical) and linguistic community (could be anywhere) and give social depth to the user of and contributor to OpenOffice. Kind of like linux user groups, only sometimes less geeky.

We deprecated these when we joined Apache for several reasons, but one was that there were too many and they didn't really seem to be leading to more engagement and participation. But perhaps times have changed?

louis

>
>
> On 2015-01-23 17:03, Aivaras Stepukonis wrote:
>> I'd like to share with you a proposal for adding to the website a page dedicated to contributors.
>>
>> For an example, please, see "http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors".
>>
>> The webpage should be accessible from the navigation bar (i.e., Product | Download | Support | ... | Contributors).
>>
>> The webpage is intended for the world at large, not the contributors' community (we have directories of volunteers in the Wiki for this). It is meant to increase our chances to be seen as contributors and to build social bridges to the external world by providing concise information about ourselves as volunteers and contributors.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Aivaras
>>
>>
>>
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>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page

YoheY - OpenOffice
In reply to this post by Louis Suárez-Potts-3
We may imagine different pages for contributors, so I sketch my one.

-Language 1
--Area 1: /website translating, website developing, write developer,
base developer, marketing, anything else./
---Contributor 1 /name/
----contribution 1
----contribution 2
----contribution 3
----contribution 4
----------------------
----Can be contacted on the following platforms /skype, mail, msn,
webpage, etc./
----platform 1
----platform 2
---------------------
Last active:
Date
"Usually I answer within .............., please be patient!" /1 hour, 1
week, 1 month, on Sundays, anything/

---Contributor 2
----contribution 1
----contribution 2
----contribution 3
----contribution 4
No contact information, just proud to be here, on the list

And so on...

Area 2, Contributors, Area 3, Contributors, Language 2 ...................

A mail server could drop a checking mail with 'Are you alive? Are you
still interested in aoo?' message to every listed person in every month.
If 'answer' mail was sent back to server, 'last active' date will be
updated. If no answer, contributor will be moved to inactive listings /
archives.


And there could be three lists. Native subsite should show up only it's
own native contributors as Aivaras planned - if I understood it well.
And there could be a link on this page with 'Show me all active
contributors for every language'. And a link for 'Show me all contributors'.

Probably not possible, but php and sql could do a great job for here.



On 2015-01-23 23:26, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:

>> On 23 Jan 2015, at 14:57, Aivaras Stepukonis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I find it rather paradoxical to have a webpage for the contacts of professional (paid?) consultants ("http://www.openoffice.org/bizdev/consultants.html") and not have an equivalent for volunteering contributors. Don't you?
>
> Yes, that's why we (and mostly I drove this) created the original page honouring all the contributors. Please: I'm not saying that those who contribute ought not to be given a page and that that page ought not to be local, if that's desired. Quite the opposite. Rather, I'm simply not wanting any page created with the best of intentions to be abandoned, lost, if the originator of it loses interest or otherwise departs the project. That's my point.
>
> A similar point was raised, most recently, I thin, in 2012. The issue was listing all contributors. Okay—but the problem noted was that such a list, as Rory and Rob put it, would almost always be out of date for someone, and better to thank a generic "all" than to identify, however desirable that would be in the abstract.
>
> See: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201203.mbox/browser
>
> Previous incarnations of native-language sites listed contributors; there was no reason not to, but also no compulsion to do so, unless the contributor insisted upon it, so each did so as resources afforded.
>
> As to putting it on the dev@ list, the reason I suggested that was to include more, not fewer people. If you think that l10n (or any other list) works better for your goals, then go ahead.
>
> Louis
>
>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page

YoheY - OpenOffice
In reply to this post by Louis Suárez-Potts-3

On 2015-01-23 23:42, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:
> I'm curious. Do you think it would be worthwhile to bing back a version of the old native-language sub-projects? These were dedicated areas in the user's native language whose focus & point was to reach out to the local (physical) and linguistic community (could be anywhere) and give social depth to the user of and contributor to OpenOffice. Kind of like linux user groups, only sometimes less geeky.
>
> We deprecated these when we joined Apache for several reasons, but one was that there were too many and they didn't really seem to be leading to more engagement and participation. But perhaps times have changed?
>
> louis
>
I'm just a newcomer here, who dreams a lot without any knowledge of
aoo's history, and you - the elders - hold your head in your hands
saying 'It starts again...' :)

I just think if there is a good possibility to contact with each other
(the contributors directly) or with the outsiders (the visitors of the
site), we should use this possibility. If we plan it well it will work
as it is dreamed.

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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page

Aivaras Stepukonis
In reply to this post by Louis Suárez-Potts-3
2015.01.24 00:26, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
> I'm simply not wanting any page created with the best of intentions to be abandoned, lost, if the originator of it loses interest or otherwise departs the project. That's my point.

I agree. That's why the page has to be simple in form and maybe limited
to committers (?) to keep numbers under check and make sure there is
long-term experience (i.e. measured in years, not weeks or months)
behind the names.

> I'm curious. Do you think it would be worthwhile to bing back a version of the old native-language sub-projects? These were dedicated areas in the user's native language whose focus & point was to reach out to the local (physical) and linguistic community (could be anywhere) and give social depth to the user of and contributor to OpenOffice. Kind of like linux user groups, only sometimes less geeky.
>
> We deprecated these when we joined Apache for several reasons, but one was that there were too many and they didn't really seem to be leading to more engagement and participation. But perhaps times have changed?

That does sound like a hard thing to maintain. A simple contact list in
a prominent place of the subsite would be enough for a start.

> Previous incarnations of native-language sites listed contributors; there was no reason not to, but also no compulsion to do so, unless the contributor insisted upon it, so each did so as resources afforded.

I agree. Another reason why the page should be optional is that some
native-lang projects are literally one-person endeavors. That person may
not want to make public his contacts. If the page were mandatory it
would have to be empty.

> As to putting it on the dev@ list, the reason I suggested that was to include more, not fewer people.

That can definitely be done, maybe after we've spent a little more time
munching on and then testing the idea?

> To build a 'social bridge' to the world might generate a much more
> higher traffic on our mailboxes, but who knows... I think it's worth a
> try.

 From the way information is presented on the page it should be clear it
is not meant as a substitute for help. As for potential spamming, it is
a real issue that is nonetheless controllable.

Regards,
Aivaras

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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page

Aivaras Stepukonis
In reply to this post by YoheY - OpenOffice
Wow. I just whistled a simple melody and you responded with an
orchestral tutti. Nice.

My first concern with your sketch is the degree of complexity. I just
have to think more about it.

My second concern is the criterion for being considered a contributor
and thus eligible for inclusion in the list. I'd say committership is a
good criterion, or is it too strict?

I'll go ahead and localize my proposed version of the contributor page.
So I have something visual to ponder upon and discuss with you.

Regards,
Aivaras

2015.01.24 01:35, YoheY - OpenOffice rašė:

> We may imagine different pages for contributors, so I sketch my one.
>
> -Language 1
> --Area 1: /website translating, website developing, write developer,
> base developer, marketing, anything else./
> ---Contributor 1 /name/
> ----contribution 1
> ----contribution 2
> ----contribution 3
> ----contribution 4
> ----------------------
> ----Can be contacted on the following platforms /skype, mail, msn,
> webpage, etc./
> ----platform 1
> ----platform 2
> ---------------------
> Last active:
> Date
> "Usually I answer within .............., please be patient!" /1 hour,
> 1 week, 1 month, on Sundays, anything/
>
> ---Contributor 2
> ----contribution 1
> ----contribution 2
> ----contribution 3
> ----contribution 4
> No contact information, just proud to be here, on the list
>
> And so on...
>
> Area 2, Contributors, Area 3, Contributors, Language 2
> ...................
>
> A mail server could drop a checking mail with 'Are you alive? Are you
> still interested in aoo?' message to every listed person in every
> month. If 'answer' mail was sent back to server, 'last active' date
> will be updated. If no answer, contributor will be moved to inactive
> listings / archives.
>
>
> And there could be three lists. Native subsite should show up only
> it's own native contributors as Aivaras planned - if I understood it
> well. And there could be a link on this page with 'Show me all active
> contributors for every language'. And a link for 'Show me all
> contributors'.
>
> Probably not possible, but php and sql could do a great job for here.
>
>
>
> On 2015-01-23 23:26, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:
>>> On 23 Jan 2015, at 14:57, Aivaras Stepukonis <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I find it rather paradoxical to have a webpage for the contacts of
>>> professional (paid?) consultants
>>> ("http://www.openoffice.org/bizdev/consultants.html") and not have
>>> an equivalent for volunteering contributors. Don't you?
>>
>> Yes, that's why we (and mostly I drove this) created the original
>> page honouring all the contributors. Please: I'm not saying that
>> those who contribute ought not to be given a page and that that page
>> ought not to be local, if that's desired. Quite the opposite. Rather,
>> I'm simply not wanting any page created with the best of intentions
>> to be abandoned, lost, if the originator of it loses interest or
>> otherwise departs the project. That's my point.
>>
>> A similar point was raised, most recently, I thin, in 2012. The issue
>> was listing all contributors. Okay—but the problem noted was that
>> such a list, as Rory and Rob put it, would almost always be out of
>> date for someone, and better to thank a generic "all" than to
>> identify, however desirable that would be in the abstract.
>>
>> See:
>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201203.mbox/browser
>>
>> Previous incarnations of native-language sites listed contributors;
>> there was no reason not to, but also no compulsion to do so, unless
>> the contributor insisted upon it, so each did so as resources afforded.
>>
>> As to putting it on the dev@ list, the reason I suggested that was to
>> include more, not fewer people. If you think that l10n (or any other
>> list) works better for your goals, then go ahead.
>>
>> Louis
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page

Andrea Pescetti-2
In reply to this post by Aivaras Stepukonis
Aivaras Stepukonis wrote:
> 2015.01.24 00:26, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
>> I'm curious. Do you think it would be worthwhile to bing back a
>> version of the old native-language sub-projects?

Not in a more structured form than mailing lists. Localized mailing
lists are already a good step forward. My idea is that whenever we have
a group of volunteers we should give them a way to coordinate which is
internal to Apache (so, three volunteers for Croatian localization means
that we should setup a mailing list for them; and that becomes the main
point of contact). Some languages have more than one mailing list (one
for project coordination and one for users, for example).

> I agree. Another reason why the page should be optional is that some
> native-lang projects are literally one-person endeavors. That person may
> not want to make public his contacts. If the page were mandatory it
> would have to be empty.

I'm trying to get to the "What problem does this solve?" angle. If this
is a page meant to be useful for the general international public, I
think the best structure could be something like (for the language XX;
something will apply to some languages only):
   ---
- For support in XX, use the [XX Forum] or the [XX users list]
([...explanation on how to subscribe/unsubscribe... link to archives...])

- To report XX translation issues, use the [Localization mailing list]
or the [XX mailing list]

- To report a problem with the XX dictionary, contact

You can also contact the following volunteers directly:

Name | Area of Practice | Location | Contact

[...this is a variant of
http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors...]

Get involved

- To join the XX translation team, write to ...
   ---
This could be a generic "XX" page that can scale according to how much
we have to offer for the specific language. So in this case the
volunteers who translate the site adapt everything to their specific
situation.

Regards,
   Andrea.

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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page

YoheY - OpenOffice
In reply to this post by Aivaras Stepukonis

> My first concern with your sketch is the degree of complexity. I just
> have to think more about it.
It just seems to be complex. One list contains everything. The
environment decide which records to show up from it.

>
> My second concern is the criterion for being considered a contributor
> and thus eligible for inclusion in the list. I'd say committership is
> a good criterion, or is it too strict?

I guess if this kind of list would be used, some kind of rank could
express the level or weight of contribution. /patcher, developer,
tester, committer, have good ideas, etc./




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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page

YoheY - OpenOffice
In reply to this post by Andrea Pescetti-2
Yet another point of view.
Sounds reasonable, 'affordable', maintainable.

A 'localized' mailing list was a wish of mine too, when I had to keep
in  touch with other translators in my language. Not to mention that the
difficulties of using a foreign language on different levels or using it
at all vanishes in a moment. Every sublist member understands 'natively'
what the other is talking about.



On 2015-01-24 10:39, Andrea Pescetti wrote:

> Aivaras Stepukonis wrote:
>> 2015.01.24 00:26, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
>>> I'm curious. Do you think it would be worthwhile to bing back a
>>> version of the old native-language sub-projects?
>
> Not in a more structured form than mailing lists. Localized mailing
> lists are already a good step forward. My idea is that whenever we
> have a group of volunteers we should give them a way to coordinate
> which is internal to Apache (so, three volunteers for Croatian
> localization means that we should setup a mailing list for them; and
> that becomes the main point of contact). Some languages have more than
> one mailing list (one for project coordination and one for users, for
> example).
>
>> I agree. Another reason why the page should be optional is that some
>> native-lang projects are literally one-person endeavors. That person may
>> not want to make public his contacts. If the page were mandatory it
>> would have to be empty.
>
> I'm trying to get to the "What problem does this solve?" angle. If
> this is a page meant to be useful for the general international
> public, I think the best structure could be something like (for the
> language XX; something will apply to some languages only):
>   ---
> - For support in XX, use the [XX Forum] or the [XX users list]
> ([...explanation on how to subscribe/unsubscribe... link to archives...])
>
> - To report XX translation issues, use the [Localization mailing list]
> or the [XX mailing list]
>
> - To report a problem with the XX dictionary, contact
>
> You can also contact the following volunteers directly:
>
> Name | Area of Practice | Location | Contact
>
> [...this is a variant of
> http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors...]
>
> Get involved
>
> - To join the XX translation team, write to ...
>   ---
> This could be a generic "XX" page that can scale according to how much
> we have to offer for the specific language. So in this case the
> volunteers who translate the site adapt everything to their specific
> situation.
>
> Regards,
>   Andrea.
>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page

Louis Suárez-Potts-3
In reply to this post by YoheY - OpenOffice

> On 24 Jan 2015, at 06:09, YoheY - OpenOffice <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>> My first concern with your sketch is the degree of complexity. I just have to think more about it.
> It just seems to be complex. One list contains everything. The environment decide which records to show up from it.
>
>>
>> My second concern is the criterion for being considered a contributor and thus eligible for inclusion in the list. I'd say committership is a good criterion, or is it too strict?
>
> I guess if this kind of list would be used, some kind of rank could express the level or weight of contribution. /patcher, developer, tester, committer, have good ideas, etc./
>
I think we all agree that avoiding complexity is a good goal. But here's another chord to add to the polyphon. What kind of mechanisms do you suppose could be used here, in the credits, to encourage more substantive engagement? Or even to retain what's already been committed? For instance, local meet ups might work, as could the integration with a social media site. "Integration" here does not mean, necessarily, anything more than just cross linking. :-)

Basically, my desire is to recognise contributions & contributors and then to encourage more and more of the kind. Many tactics can work and do work; it depends on person, context, even code. One can even gamify (eg, use a layered approach, where the "reward" is stepping up the meritocratic ladder—which is what is done, anyway, only without the title. The difference, I suppose, made by calling it a game would lie in the setting of goals—without, at the same time, sacrificing the real logic of open source, which is that trust and public respect are earned through contributions, especially those others appreciate—by using them.)

cheers,
louis



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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page

Louis Suárez-Potts-3
In reply to this post by YoheY - OpenOffice
Hi,

> On 24 Jan 2015, at 06:26, YoheY - OpenOffice <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yet another point of view.
> Sounds reasonable, 'affordable', maintainable.
>
> A 'localized' mailing list was a wish of mine too, when I had to keep in  touch with other translators in my language. Not to mention that the difficulties of using a foreign language on different levels or using it at all vanishes in a moment. Every sublist member understands 'natively' what the other is talking about.
>
>
As a grizzled elder of the community (*cough* *cough*), localised MLs work fine as long as they are actually populated with posts and as long as those posting do not effectively wall themselves off simply by focusing on their lists. The rule we had before was that all posts related to actual coding work being done on the application must be in English and must be on the general development lists. The problems we encountered before related not just to insularity and then alienation (which could very well result in fragmentation and even forking), but, again, the withering silence of a list left dead and forgotten by the absent community.

We knew of this possibility when we first started the NL programme, back in 2001 or so, with the creation of the Francophone list and project, itself a difficult negotiation. But our caution then was also arguably misplaced. When I set the structure up, I hated the idea of locality and nation and wanted to exploit the abstracting qualities of the Internet. So I emphasised language over region and nation (didn't matter where you were or your nationality; flags were not used and indeed nearly prohibited) and deprecated in-person meetings and events. By the time I realised just how vitally important such were, it was hard to swing the momentum around. What made me realise the importance of locality and humanity (sigh) was the success of those linguistic communities that also had strong physical presence, such as the German, Italian, Brazilian, to name but three; there were others, too.

Hence, my desire to develop local, human, in-person groups that complement lists and keep OpenOffice real.

best
louis


>
> On 2015-01-24 10:39, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>> Aivaras Stepukonis wrote:
>>> 2015.01.24 00:26, Louis Suárez-Potts rašė:
>>>> I'm curious. Do you think it would be worthwhile to bing back a
>>>> version of the old native-language sub-projects?
>>
>> Not in a more structured form than mailing lists. Localized mailing lists are already a good step forward. My idea is that whenever we have a group of volunteers we should give them a way to coordinate which is internal to Apache (so, three volunteers for Croatian localization means that we should setup a mailing list for them; and that becomes the main point of contact). Some languages have more than one mailing list (one for project coordination and one for users, for example).
>>
>>> I agree. Another reason why the page should be optional is that some
>>> native-lang projects are literally one-person endeavors. That person may
>>> not want to make public his contacts. If the page were mandatory it
>>> would have to be empty.
>>
>> I'm trying to get to the "What problem does this solve?" angle. If this is a page meant to be useful for the general international public, I think the best structure could be something like (for the language XX; something will apply to some languages only):
>>  ---
>> - For support in XX, use the [XX Forum] or the [XX users list] ([...explanation on how to subscribe/unsubscribe... link to archives...])
>>
>> - To report XX translation issues, use the [Localization mailing list] or the [XX mailing list]
>>
>> - To report a problem with the XX dictionary, contact
>>
>> You can also contact the following volunteers directly:
>>
>> Name | Area of Practice | Location | Contact
>>
>> [...this is a variant of http://www.openoffice.org/lt/participate/contributors...]
>>
>> Get involved
>>
>> - To join the XX translation team, write to ...
>>  ---
>> This could be a generic "XX" page that can scale according to how much we have to offer for the specific language. So in this case the volunteers who translate the site adapt everything to their specific situation.
>>
>> Regards,
>>  Andrea.
>>
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>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
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>>
>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page

YoheY - OpenOffice
In reply to this post by Louis Suárez-Potts-3
Hi Louis!

- I think we all agree that avoiding complexity is a good goal.
- Yes, I absolutely accept this. The more complicated a site or program,
the more we have to fight with errors.
But from what point of view should we see complexity?
 From the developer of the site or program?
 From the contributor?
 From the visitor of the site or the user of the program?
I think, we should take care of all the points of view, BUT on different
levels.

The developers have to have enough knowledge to construct a site or
program, which is as simple as it can be used WITHOUT making complex the
work of the other two groups. Because the weight is far more different.
While 1000 or 100000 developer is working on a project with high skills
and enough knowledge to cope with the programming issues, 10 millions of
people are USING the program and visiting the site and MANY of them have
good ideas and are willing to help or take part in the project on
different levels.

So, according to this, I think, the developers with the highest
knowledge have to develop site and program as complex as the users with
the least knowlegde should say: 'It was an easy piece of cake!' Not to
mention the work of the contributors, who take far more time with the
'infrastructure' of AOO.

- But here's another chord to add to the polyphon.
- Yes. AOO is a symphony. This chord adds respect to the developers and
volunteers and makes easier for the users or visitors to contact with
them for any reason, probably without English knowledge. Drum and bass
can be very simple and full of power. But a symphony should impress by
its simplicity AND complexity at the same time. Hard work in the
background, easy listening for the audience.

- What kind of mechanisms do you suppose could be used here, in the
credits, to encourage more substantive engagement? Or even to retain
what's already been committed?
- The more road leads to AOO, the more easier to take part in it, the
more easier to handle things, the more jumps in. The more jumps in, the
more stays.
And, the only thing developers have to do, is to create a list to say
'thankyou' for ideas, patches, contributions, translations. For the
effort and time.
And by this, offering help to others at the same time with this list.
/Of course, I have no idea how many members should be on this list, how
many are willing to be listed or wants this way to be in the 'hall of
fame' and offer help to others./

- The difference, I suppose, made by calling it a game...
- The 'rank thing' may sound like gamifying respect, but I did not meant
it this way.
I suggested it, because
1. I found committership as a criterion too high /I may though of a
different list like Aivaras or you (it happens offen :) )
2. I don't even know my 'rank' /never applied a patch, no committership,
just 'high flying ideas' :) /


- ...localised MLs work fine as long as they are actually populated with
posts and as long as those posting do not effectively wall themselves
off simply by focusing on their lists...
- I have to admit, I did not even think of this kind of danger which
really seems to be real with forking at the end.
But as all things, it has two sides too.
While it helps a lots of outsiders, English non-speakers to join,
discuss or ask, it risks the 'singularity'.
But if AOO has more 'strong legs' in many different languages, it could
'stand ground' more effectively for more time too.


Complexity-simplycity: a few days ago I accidently noticed,  that
someone - Rob - has made a change to test-hu.
He updated the number of download from 100 million to 125 million. And
as I saw, he had to update it everywhere.
And Aivaras corrected a list ordering as he wrote in his latest mail:
"Math, Base ... changed to: ... Base, Math"
And this changes should be followed on the other subsites too.
What is complex?
To build a site with more work and we can change this values with just
'one click'?
Or to build a simple site and copy this 'one click' work many times, always.

So what is simple?
To list or not to list? :)


Sorry for this long monolog and thanks for reading.

Regards,
csaba




On 2015-01-24 15:29, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:

>> On 24 Jan 2015, at 06:09, YoheY - OpenOffice <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> My first concern with your sketch is the degree of complexity. I just have to think more about it.
>> It just seems to be complex. One list contains everything. The environment decide which records to show up from it.
>>
>>> My second concern is the criterion for being considered a contributor and thus eligible for inclusion in the list. I'd say committership is a good criterion, or is it too strict?
>> I guess if this kind of list would be used, some kind of rank could express the level or weight of contribution. /patcher, developer, tester, committer, have good ideas, etc./
>>
> I think we all agree that avoiding complexity is a good goal. But here's another chord to add to the polyphon. What kind of mechanisms do you suppose could be used here, in the credits, to encourage more substantive engagement? Or even to retain what's already been committed? For instance, local meet ups might work, as could the integration with a social media site. "Integration" here does not mean, necessarily, anything more than just cross linking. :-)
>
> Basically, my desire is to recognise contributions & contributors and then to encourage more and more of the kind. Many tactics can work and do work; it depends on person, context, even code. One can even gamify (eg, use a layered approach, where the "reward" is stepping up the meritocratic ladder—which is what is done, anyway, only without the title. The difference, I suppose, made by calling it a game would lie in the setting of goals—without, at the same time, sacrificing the real logic of open source, which is that trust and public respect are earned through contributions, especially those others appreciate—by using them.)
>
> cheers,
> louis
>
>
>
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page

Louis Suárez-Potts-3

> On 25 Jan 2015, at 11:42, YoheY - OpenOffice <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> So what is simple?
> To list or not to list? :)

My guide has been always: being able to change your mind and to efficiently alert others of the change; and vice versa. Answer in concrete terms: start off small. Do reality checks. Emphasise humans. "reality checks" means something like every 3 months or so, ask: is this working? And…remind us all outside of the dedicated list(s) what you are doing and why and how it’s helping or not whatever you think is important for the community.

Apache OpenOffice no longer has the native-lang projects of yore. These pretty much became the LibreOffice community (serves me right—and also underscores the forking issue). But this means, however, that you see what they have, as LO’s NLC community is, for me, a rather familiar trip down memory hole.

In a nutshell: The native-language efforts work to a) expand the community base but b) not necessarily its developer cadre. For that, we still need the usual things. A may lead to B, but you need a narrative for that.

Cheers,
Louis
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page

Louis Suárez-Potts-3
In reply to this post by YoheY - OpenOffice

> On 25 Jan 2015, at 11:42, YoheY - OpenOffice <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> So what is simple?
> To list or not to list? :)


Oh, I think I forgot to cite the page with the "Native Language Confederation" projects. It’s https://www.libreoffice.org/community/nlc/

louis
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RE: Website: proposal for new contributors page

Eneko Arrese
List it :)

> Subject: Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page
> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2015 19:19:05 -0500
> To: [hidden email]
>
>
> > On 25 Jan 2015, at 11:42, YoheY - OpenOffice <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > So what is simple?
> > To list or not to list? :)
>
>
> Oh, I think I forgot to cite the page with the "Native Language Confederation" projects. It’s https://www.libreoffice.org/community/nlc/
>
> louis
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Re: Website: proposal for new contributors page

YoheY - OpenOffice
In reply to this post by Louis Suárez-Potts-3
I may measured it superficially, but Native Language Confederation looks
the same as AOO's native language subsites.
But at LO, there are localized / native social media links at the end of
the pages, while AOO seems to link or maintain - I only checked a few NL
site - the English ones. I mean, social media links are already given at
the 'I want to stay in touch with OpenOffice' part, but only English
speakers, I guess.

By the way: number of downloads should be updated here too. /from 100 to
125, Google+ and Facebook/

Louis:
Could you sketch your imagined solution, what means 'start off small'
for you?
What to list or what not to list? Or no list at all just mailing list
opportunity? Only for one site or for more? What is the structure?

Aivaras:
Could you talk about your dream? :)

Eneko:
So, what and how should we list? :)

All the bests,
csaba



On 2015-01-26 01:19, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote:

>> On 25 Jan 2015, at 11:42, YoheY - OpenOffice <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> So what is simple?
>> To list or not to list? :)
>
> Oh, I think I forgot to cite the page with the "Native Language Confederation" projects. It’s https://www.libreoffice.org/community/nlc/
>
> louis
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