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font selection UI suggestions

Caolán McNamara
A well thought out suggestion for a font selection dialog.

http://eyegene.ophthy.med.umich.edu/unicode/fontdialog/

C.


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Re: font selection UI suggestions

John Hardy
>
> A well thought out suggestion for a font selection dialog.
>
> http://eyegene.ophthy.med.umich.edu/unicode/fontdialog/
>
> C.

It would be a major improvement if OO would simply show the CORRECT FONT
SIZE in the Font Size window in the toolbar. Version 2.0 can't even do
that basic task. If you type "10.7" for the size in that window, then
hit Enter, the correct size will be applied to the document, but the
Font Size window will only show "10". There are other strange problems:

Highlight some text. Then do a right-mouse-button-click, then pick
Character to open the Character window. Type a font size of 22.9 in the
Size window, then click on OK (or hit Enter). Immediately do a RMB
again, and the Size window will show 22.8, not 22.9. What's up with that?

Do the same procedure as above, but type 22.99 for the font size. When
you go back, it will be 23. Somebody needs to clean up this code.

There is an issue filed about this, but I can't find the number at the
moment.

John Hardy

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Re: font selection UI suggestions

John Hardy
> It would be a major improvement if OO would simply show the CORRECT
> FONT SIZE in the Font Size window in the toolbar. Version 2.0 can't
> even do that basic task. If you type "10.7" for the size in that
> window, then hit Enter, the correct size will be applied to the
> document, but the Font Size window will only show "10". There are
> other strange problems:
>
> Highlight some text. Then do a right-mouse-button-click, then pick
> Character to open the Character window. Type a font size of 22.9 in
> the Size window, then click on OK (or hit Enter). Immediately do a RMB
> again, and the Size window will show 22.8, not 22.9. What's up with that?
>
> Do the same procedure as above, but type 22.99 for the font size. When
> you go back, it will be 23. Somebody needs to clean up this code.
>
> There is an issue filed about this, but I can't find the number at the
> moment.
>
> John Hardy

To respond to my own loss of memory, it is issue #47142. The summary is:

> font size 10,5 shown as 10 (in combo box) when selected

It was filed in April and remains unfixed.

John Hardy

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Re: font selection UI suggestions

Caolán McNamara
In reply to this post by John Hardy
On Tue, 2005-11-08 at 14:44 -0600, John Hardy wrote:
> >
> > A well thought out suggestion for a font selection dialog.
> >
> > http://eyegene.ophthy.med.umich.edu/unicode/fontdialog/
> >
> > C.
>
> It would be a major improvement if OO would simply show the CORRECT FONT
> SIZE in the Font Size window in the toolbar.

This is the *dev* list isn't it. Pull out your compiler/debugger and
whip up a patch.

C.


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Re: font selection UI suggestions

eric b-3
Hi Caolan,

Caolan McNamara a ?crit :

> This is the *dev* list isn't it. Pull out your compiler/debugger and
> whip up a patch.

:-)

English is not my native language, and I do not exactly understand the
purpose of your post. Can you explain more, please ?

Last time, you pointed pages, and Mac OS X was already in background...



Regards,
eric bachard

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Re: font selection UI suggestions

Mathias Bauer
eric.bachard wrote:

> Hi Caolan,
>
> Caolan McNamara a ?crit :
>
>> This is the *dev* list isn't it. Pull out your compiler/debugger and
>> whip up a patch.
>
> :-)
>
> English is not my native language, and I do not exactly understand the
> purpose of your post. Can you explain more, please ?

Caolan meant that complaining about a bug on the dev list is not
appropriate - people that post here should fix bugs, not complain about
them. :-)

Best regards,
Mathias

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Re: font selection UI suggestions

eric b-3
Mathias Bauer a ?crit :
> eric.bachard wrote:
>
> Caolan meant that complaining about a bug on the dev list is not
> appropriate - people that post here should fix bugs, not complain about
> them. :-)

Thank you  :-)

In fact, my question was probably not enough clear : I wanted to ask
Caolan why post here about fonts, just after have posted about pages...



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Re: font selection UI suggestions

John Hardy
In reply to this post by Caolán McNamara
>
> On Tue, 2005-11-08 at 14:44 -0600, John Hardy wrote:
>  
>>> > >
>>> > > A well thought out suggestion for a font selection dialog.
>>> > >
>>> > > http://eyegene.ophthy.med.umich.edu/unicode/fontdialog/
>>> > >
>>> > > C.
>>>      
>> >
>> > It would be a major improvement if OO would simply show the CORRECT FONT
>> > SIZE in the Font Size window in the toolbar.
>>    
>
> This is the *dev* list isn't it. Pull out your compiler/debugger and
> whip up a patch.
>
> C.

I was hoping that the developer who actually wrote the related code
would **fix** it. He or she knows where the related code is, knows how
it works and could fix it in a few minutes. Who is that person? And why
has such a basic problem remained unfixed since April?

John Hardy
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Re: font selection UI suggestions

Kohei Yoshida
On 11/8/05, John Hardy <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >

> >> >
> >> > It would be a major improvement if OO would simply show the CORRECT FONT
> >> > SIZE in the Font Size window in the toolbar.
> >>
> >
> > This is the *dev* list isn't it. Pull out your compiler/debugger and
> > whip up a patch.
> >
> > C.
>
> I was hoping that the developer who actually wrote the related code
> would **fix** it. He or she knows where the related code is, knows how
> it works and could fix it in a few minutes.

How did you know that it could get fixed in a few minutes if you
haven't read the code (or you are not going to)?  Just curious.

>And why
> has such a basic problem remained unfixed since April?.

Because no one has bothered to file an issue for it?  Seriously, if
you don't want to read the code and provide a fix, that's fine.  But
at least you could do your part by filing an issue so that the right
person gets notified.

I certainly wouldn't expect everybody to be a developer and everybody
to be able to fix a bug, but I would at least expect he or she to try
to do his/her part, before coming to a dev list and demand *someone
else* fix it for *you*.

BTW, this would be a great opportunity to get your hands down and
dirty with the code.  Trying to fix a bug that bothers you a lot is a
great way to get you motivated.  That's how I got started too.

Kohei



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Re: font selection UI suggestions

Kohei Yoshida
On 11/8/05, Kohei Yoshida <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 11/8/05, John Hardy <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >

> >And why
> > has such a basic problem remained unfixed since April?.
>
> Because no one has bothered to file an issue for it?  Seriously, if

Ok.  I pull the trigger too soon.  I didn't read the whole thread.
Now that I did it, I know you (or someone else) have already filed an
issue for it.  So, please ignore my rant with grace, except...

> BTW, this would be a great opportunity to get your hands down and
> dirty with the code.  Trying to fix a bug that bothers you a lot is a
> great way to get you motivated.  That's how I got started too.

This part is still true.  It would be a great way to get started.

Kohei


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Re: font selection UI suggestions

John Hardy
In reply to this post by Kohei Yoshida
On 11/8/05, Kohei  <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 11/8/05, John Hardy <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>>> > >
>>>      
>
>  
>>>>> > >> >
>>>>> > >> > It would be a major improvement if OO would simply show the CORRECT FONT
>>>>> > >> > SIZE in the Font Size window in the toolbar.
>>>>>          
>>>> > >>
>>>>        
>>> > >
>>> > > This is the *dev* list isn't it. Pull out your compiler/debugger and
>>> > > whip up a patch.
>>> > >
>>> > > C.
>>>      
>> >
>> > I was hoping that the developer who actually wrote the related code
>> > would **fix** it. He or she knows where the related code is, knows how
>> > it works and could fix it in a few minutes.
>>    
>
> How did you know that it could get fixed in a few minutes if you
> haven't read the code (or you are not going to)?  Just curious.
>
>  


It is such a simple problem that I don't have to read the code: The code
that displays the font size in the Toolbar window is either limited to
ZERO decimal places by mistake (a simple-to-fix formatting issue), or it
displays the integer portion only by mistake (a simple-to-fix formatting
issue), or something like that. This cannot possibly be hard to fix. Can
you explain why you think it might take longer than a few minutes? It
would be instructive to me. It may have taken a long time to write the
code in the first place, but fixing a number-formatting issue in
existing code should be a quick fix for the person who wrote it and
knows where to look.

>
> Because no one has bothered to file an issue for it?  Seriously, if
> you don't want to read the code and provide a fix, that's fine.  But
> at least you could do your part by filing an issue so that the right
> person gets notified.
>
>  
OK, got your later message. Rant gracefully ignored.


> I certainly wouldn't expect everybody to be a developer and everybody
> to be able to fix a bug, but I would at least expect he or she to try
> to do his/her part, before coming to a dev list and demand *someone
> else* fix it for *you*.
>
> BTW, this would be a great opportunity to get your hands down and
> dirty with the code.  Trying to fix a bug that bothers you a lot is a
> great way to get you motivated.  That's how I got started too.
>
>  
I have done some limited Pascal programming, but nothing anywhere near
the scale of OO. I have downloaded the source code and tried to find a
few things, but it seems complicated and convoluted (to the
inexperienced, such as myself).

If I needed some grand new feature that was not normally included in an
office suite (and if I could invent the 48-hour day), I would go
further. But this particular problem (and issue #45593, which I have
also posted a message about) seems to be SO basic that I am amazed that
the person or persons who wrote the code in the first place have not
fixed the problems. If I had written the code, and someone said "Hey -
what's with the missing digits in the Font Size window?" (or, "Why only
two decimal places for margins, line spacings, etc.?"), I would slap my
forehead, go directly to the code in question and fix it.

But those two issues remain unfixed. Sorry, but I don't understand why.
It may seem like I am *demanding* that someone fix the problems, but it
is more an expression of my amazement that something so simple has NOT
been fixed.

Thank you very much.

John Hardy
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Re: font selection UI suggestions

Malte Timmermann
In reply to this post by Caolán McNamara
Just in case someone want to fix it, here some background:
- FontSizeBox show fonts in Points
- Writer remembers font size in Twips
- Calc/Impress remember font sizes in 100th mm

So you can't make a simple fix to avoid rounding problems.

Best would be if all apps used the same unit for fonts, but that would
be a bigger task.

Only really strange thing here is when 10.7 is really shown as 10...

Malte.

John Hardy wrote:

>>A well thought out suggestion for a font selection dialog.
>>
>>http://eyegene.ophthy.med.umich.edu/unicode/fontdialog/
>>
>>C.
>
>
> It would be a major improvement if OO would simply show the CORRECT FONT
> SIZE in the Font Size window in the toolbar. Version 2.0 can't even do
> that basic task. If you type "10.7" for the size in that window, then
> hit Enter, the correct size will be applied to the document, but the
> Font Size window will only show "10". There are other strange problems:
>
> Highlight some text. Then do a right-mouse-button-click, then pick
> Character to open the Character window. Type a font size of 22.9 in the
> Size window, then click on OK (or hit Enter). Immediately do a RMB
> again, and the Size window will show 22.8, not 22.9. What's up with that?
>
> Do the same procedure as above, but type 22.99 for the font size. When
> you go back, it will be 23. Somebody needs to clean up this code.
>
> There is an issue filed about this, but I can't find the number at the
> moment.
>
> John Hardy
>
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Re: font selection UI suggestions

John Hardy
>
> Just in case someone want to fix it, here some background:
> - FontSizeBox show fonts in Points
> - Writer remembers font size in Twips
> - Calc/Impress remember font sizes in 100th mm
>
> So you can't make a simple fix to avoid rounding problems.
>
> Best would be if all apps used the same unit for fonts, but that would
> be a bigger task.
>
> Only really strange thing here is when 10.7 is really shown as 10...
>
> Malte.
>  

Even if you pick "10.5" from the drop-down font-size list of the
toolbar, there is a fraction of a second where you can see "10.5" in the
little box, but it ends up as "10". That must be a simple-to-fix problem
(in my opinion). If you then RMB-click and pick Character, you will see
"10.5" as the font size. So it seems to be a display issue that is
limited to the code that displays the font size value in the toolbar window.

Enter "10.9" in the toolbar box and it displays as "10". Enter "10.99"
in the box and it displays as "11". There are some strange rounding
things going on, but a major step forward would be to show the "tenths"
digit. I think there should be TWO decimal places available. There are
times when it is needed to tweak a document.

In the Character window (RMB then pick Character), you do get one
decimal place, but some strange rounding when you enter a new size and
hit Enter, then go back to the Character window to check the results:

"10.24" becomes "10.1".
"10.99" becomes "11".
"21.9" becomes "21.8".


I sincerely wish the person or persons who wrote that code would take a
good look at it and get rid of these bugs. It is important to be able to
specify a font size, and have confidence that it works properly. This is
not some esoteric function that one person in a million might use. Thanks.

John Hardy

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Re: font selection UI suggestions

Mathias Bauer
In reply to this post by eric b-3
eric.bachard wrote:

> Mathias Bauer a ?crit :
>> eric.bachard wrote:
>>
>> Caolan meant that complaining about a bug on the dev list is not
>> appropriate - people that post here should fix bugs, not complain about
>> them. :-)
>
> Thank you  :-)
>
> In fact, my question was probably not enough clear : I wanted to ask
> Caolan why post here about fonts, just after have posted about pages...

But that's not what you quoted from Caolans mail. :-)

Best regards,
Mathias

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Re: font selection UI suggestions

Niklas Nebel
In reply to this post by Malte Timmermann
Malte Timmermann wrote:
> Just in case someone want to fix it, here some background:
> - FontSizeBox show fonts in Points
> - Writer remembers font size in Twips
> - Calc/Impress remember font sizes in 100th mm

If only things were that simple. Calc cell attributes use twips
internally, only formatted text portions and the drawing layer are in
1/100th mm.

> So you can't make a simple fix to avoid rounding problems.
>
> Best would be if all apps used the same unit for fonts, but that would
> be a bigger task.
>
> Only really strange thing here is when 10.7 is really shown as 10...

Right. Two-decimal-digit precision in points isn't available. The font
size toolbox controller is supposed to show a single decimal digit and
did so in OOo 1.1. This got broken with the change to UNO-based
notification and should be fixed quickly. Unfortunately the comments in
issue 47142 mention other things (more decimal digits, actual text
rendering), which should be completely separate and distract from this
problem.

Niklas

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Re: font selection UI suggestions

Kohei Yoshida
In reply to this post by John Hardy
Hi John,

On 11/8/05, John Hardy <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > How did you know that it could get fixed in a few minutes if you
> > haven't read the code (or you are not going to)?  Just curious.
> >
> >
>
>
> It is such a simple problem that I don't have to read the code: The code
> that displays the font size in the Toolbar window is either limited to
> ZERO decimal places by mistake (a simple-to-fix formatting issue), or it
> displays the integer portion only by mistake (a simple-to-fix formatting
> issue), or something like that. This cannot possibly be hard to fix. Can
> you explain why you think it might take longer than a few minutes? It
> would be instructive to me. It may have taken a long time to write the
> code in the first place, but fixing a number-formatting issue in
> existing code should be a quick fix for the person who wrote it and
> knows where to look.

But you are just speculating that this is the case.  Even if what you
say here is true, which it isn't based on the comments that follow
from other developers, find the right location in the code base will
take at least more than just a few minutes.  Even if you are quite
familar with the code, pinpointing exactly where the problem lies is
moderately time-consuming (maybe upwards of 10-30 minutes?)

There are issues in the past that I thought were a simple fix, before
I started working on fixing them.  Sometimes, even if the bug seems so
simple that you think an experienced developer can fix it in a few
minutes, it may turn out to be quite complicated.

I can give you this issue

http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=25368

as an example of appearing simple, but not so simple to fix.

> I have done some limited Pascal programming, but nothing anywhere near
> the scale of OO. I have downloaded the source code and tried to find a
> few things, but it seems complicated and convoluted (to the
> inexperienced, such as myself).

I was quite inexperienced with C++ when I started messing with the
code some years ago, and I had no experience working with a codebase
as huge as OO.o's.  I gained experience mostly by trying to fix bugs.
So, my point was, sometime you'll be surprised how much you can
handle, even if you don't have much prior experience dealing with such
a huge codebase.  Of course it will take a long time to fix a simple
bug at first, but you'll do better as you do more.

> But those two issues remain unfixed. Sorry, but I don't understand why.
> It may seem like I am *demanding* that someone fix the problems, but it
> is more an expression of my amazement that something so simple has NOT
> been fixed.

You may not have been demanding, but use of CAPS in a mailing list may
be (sometimes incorrectly) taken as a demand.

Also, to me this issue seems like a low priority bug because it
doesn't eat or alter your document, nor does it crash the applicaton.
It's just a simple annoyance.  I'm sure it is high priority for you,
but when there are literally thousands of bugs to get squashed, a
method must be developed to properly prioritize them.

Kohei


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