reveal codes

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reveal codes

Stephen Nichols
I used WordPerfect for 15 years because of two reasons, besides that it’s a great product.
1)  I hate Microsoft.
2)  I absolutely LOVE the “reveal codes” function of WP.  It is the most powerful tool in word processing, eliminating all sorts of bad formatting issues.

I can’t easily use WP anymore since all of our computers have gone to Macs and Corel won’t come back with their Mac version.  I find OpenOffice a very suitable replacement.  But … Why can’t/won't OpenOffice add a similar feature?

Stephen Nichols
Aldie, Virginia
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Re: reveal codes

Rory O'Farrell
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017 15:48:40 -0400
Stephen Nichols <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I used WordPerfect for 15 years because of two reasons, besides that it’s a great product.
> 1)  I hate Microsoft.
> 2)  I absolutely LOVE the “reveal codes” function of WP.  It is the most powerful tool in word processing, eliminating all sorts of bad formatting issues.
>
> I can’t easily use WP anymore since all of our computers have gone to Macs and Corel won’t come back with their Mac version.  I find OpenOffice a very suitable replacement.  But … Why can’t/won't OpenOffice add a similar feature?
>
> Stephen Nichols
> Aldie, Virginia

Because the formatting codes are not simple one/two byte codes -they are XML strings.  You need to learn how to use D
Styles and may find it helpful to turn on /View /Non printing characters.

If you wish to see the XML formatting codes, unzip an OpenOffice file (which is a zipped archive) and examine content.xml with a plain text or an XML editor  Be advised, bad editing of this file can damage the OO file, perhaps irreparably.

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Rory O'Farrell <[hidden email]>

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Re: reveal codes

Robert Funnell
In reply to this post by Stephen Nichols
On Wed, 9 Aug 2017, Stephen Nichols wrote:

> I used WordPerfect for 15 years because of two reasons, besides that it’s a great product.
> 1)  I hate Microsoft.
> 2)  I absolutely LOVE the “reveal codes” function of WP.  It is the most powerful tool in word processing, eliminating all sorts of bad formatting issues.
>
> I can’t easily use WP anymore since all of our computers have gone to Macs and Corel won’t come back with their Mac version.  I find OpenOffice a very suitable replacement.  But … Why can’t/won't OpenOffice add a similar feature?
>
> Stephen Nichols
> Aldie, Virginia

You may be interested in looking at bug 3395 from 2002:
https://bz.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=3395

Many people have said that it's impossible. A couple of people have
worked on macros that demonstrate that it is possible (cf. my old
discussion at
http://audilab.bme.mcgill.ca/~funnell/swil_ooo.html#reveal).

- Robert


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Re: reveal codes

Johnny Rosenberg
In reply to this post by Stephen Nichols
2017-08-09 21:48 GMT+02:00 Stephen Nichols <[hidden email]>:

> I used WordPerfect for 15 years because of two reasons, besides that it’s
> a great product.
> 1)  I hate Microsoft.
> 2)  I absolutely LOVE the “reveal codes” function of WP.  It is the most
> powerful tool in word processing, eliminating all sorts of bad formatting
> issues.
>
> I can’t easily use WP anymore since all of our computers have gone to Macs
> and Corel won’t come back with their Mac version.  I find OpenOffice a very
> suitable replacement.  But … Why can’t/won't OpenOffice add a similar
> feature?
>

I think someone built an add-on for this many years ago, but I'm not sure
if it still works. Or maybe it was made for LibreOffice, I don't remember.

Apache OpenOffice is built around styles, kind of. This has its obvious
advantages, especially when you want consistent documents and it's very
easy to make huge changes very quickly, for instance in a few clicks change
the font size for all headers in hundreds of pages at once. I use styles
all the time and I never needed ”reveal codes” and I'm pretty sure I'll
never need them.


Anyway, if that add-on can't be found or if it doesn't work with newer
versions of Apache OpenOffice, and if you don't want to adapt to styles,
then I would say that Apache OpenOffice is not for you. Pick something
else. This discussion has been up quite a few times and it seems obvious to
me that this feature will never ever be implemented in Apache OpenOffice,
nor in LibreOffice. At least that's what I think.


Kind regards

Johnny Rosenberg


> Stephen Nichols
> Aldie, Virginia
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Re: reveal codes

Martin Groenescheij
In reply to this post by Stephen Nichols


On 10/08/17 5:48 AM, Stephen Nichols wrote:
> I used WordPerfect for 15 years because of two reasons, besides that it’s a great product.
> 1)  I hate Microsoft.
> 2)  I absolutely LOVE the “reveal codes” function of WP.  It is the most powerful tool in word processing, eliminating all sorts of bad formatting issues.

The reveal codes shows bad formatting issues, if you learn to use Styles
properly there is nothing to reveal.

>
> I can’t easily use WP anymore since all of our computers have gone to Macs and Corel won’t come back with their Mac version.  I find OpenOffice a very suitable replacement.  But … Why can’t/won't OpenOffice add a similar feature?
>
> Stephen Nichols
> Aldie, Virginia
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>


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Re: reveal codes

Robert Funnell
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Martin Groenescheij wrote:

> The reveal codes shows bad formatting issues, if you learn to use Styles
> properly there is nothing to reveal.

Sometimes one has to work with documents created by other people.

And often one would like to be able to place the cursor before or
after an invisible format or style 'code' (or xml tag). I think that
the possibility (in principle) of doing so was demonstrated by the
macros originally developed by Iannz (referred to on my Web page
mentioned in an earlier post in this thread).

- Robert

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Re: reveal codes

jonathon-3
In reply to this post by Stephen Nichols
On 08/09/2017 07:48 PM, Stephen Nichols wrote:

> 2)  I absolutely LOVE the “reveal codes” function of WP.
> But … Why can’t/won't OpenOffice add a similar feature?

What problem do you think "Reveal Codes" solves.

I mean something other the fact that the developers of WP couldn't write
bug free code. (Reveal Codes was a quick fix to enable users to fix the
presentation markup errors that Wp put into their documents, due to bad
coding in their software.)

Robert wrote:

>Many people have said that it's impossible. A couple of people have
worked on macros that demonstrate that it is possible

Not impossible, but crafting either internal code, or an extension to
display "Reveal Codes" per se, is probably a waste of programmer resources.

Johnny wrote:

>I think someone built an add-on for this many years ago, but I'm not sure

I used an add-on with OOo 1.1.3-ZA Write, and a different add-on for OOo
1.1.3 Calc.

IIRC, Ian's macro didn't provide editing functionality.

###

If one configures the stylist side-bar, and formatting tool bar
appropriately, one can get virtually all of the functionality of Reveal
Codes.

jonathon

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Re: reveal codes

Stephen Nichols
In reply to this post by Robert Funnell
Let me clarify.  The “codes” revealed are not what your thinking of — tags with bracketed text, XML code, etc..  I think that the viewing option should more properly be called “Reveal Structure” since it simply shows what formatting instruction has been given and where, specifically things like, typeface and size, indentations, line spacing, etc..

Stephen Nichols


On Aug 9, 2017, at 8:35 PM, Robert Funnell <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Martin Groenescheij wrote:

> The reveal codes shows bad formatting issues, if you learn to use Styles properly there is nothing to reveal.

Sometimes one has to work with documents created by other people.

And often one would like to be able to place the cursor before or after an invisible format or style 'code' (or xml tag). I think that the possibility (in principle) of doing so was demonstrated by the macros originally developed by Iannz (referred to on my Web page mentioned in an earlier post in this thread).

- Robert



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Re: reveal codes

zahra a
hi.
did you test libreoffice for this purpose?
and i recommend that peist the content of your file in for example
notepad++ to see the codes.
God bless you!

On 8/10/17, Stephen Nichols <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Let me clarify.  The “codes” revealed are not what your thinking of — tags
> with bracketed text, XML code, etc..  I think that the viewing option should
> more properly be called “Reveal Structure” since it simply shows what
> formatting instruction has been given and where, specifically things like,
> typeface and size, indentations, line spacing, etc..
>
> Stephen Nichols
>
>
> On Aug 9, 2017, at 8:35 PM, Robert Funnell <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Martin Groenescheij wrote:
>
>> The reveal codes shows bad formatting issues, if you learn to use Styles
>> properly there is nothing to reveal.
>
> Sometimes one has to work with documents created by other people.
>
> And often one would like to be able to place the cursor before or after an
> invisible format or style 'code' (or xml tag). I think that the possibility
> (in principle) of doing so was demonstrated by the macros originally
> developed by Iannz (referred to on my Web page mentioned in an earlier post
> in this thread).
>
> - Robert
>
>
>
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holy quran, chapter 21, verse 107.
in the very authentic narration is:
imam hosein is the beacon of light and the ark of salvation.
best website for studying islamic book in different languages
al-islam.org

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Re: reveal codes

Robert Funnell
In reply to this post by Stephen Nichols
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Stephen Nichols wrote:

> Let me clarify.  The “codes” revealed are not what your thinking of — tags with bracketed text, XML code, etc..  I think that the viewing option should more properly be called “Reveal Structure” since it simply shows what formatting instruction has been given and where, specifically things like, typeface and size, indentations, line spacing, etc..

You're right that what is wanted is not an exact display of the actual
internal coding but rather some visual indication of what's going on.

To me the value of RevealCodes in WordPerfect was not just in seeing
the structure but in therefore being able to position the cursor
before or after (or inside or outside of) a particular style. This
would be just as useful in OO and LO.

- Robert


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Re: reveal codes

Rory O'Farrell
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 07:08:16 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
Robert Funnell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Stephen Nichols wrote:
>
> > Let me clarify.  The “codes” revealed are not what your thinking of — tags with bracketed text, XML code, etc..  I think that the viewing option should more properly be called “Reveal Structure” since it simply shows what formatting instruction has been given and where, specifically things like, typeface and size, indentations, line spacing, etc..
>
> You're right that what is wanted is not an exact display of the actual
> internal coding but rather some visual indication of what's going on.
>
> To me the value of RevealCodes in WordPerfect was not just in seeing
> the structure but in therefore being able to position the cursor
> before or after (or inside or outside of) a particular style. This
> would be just as useful in OO and LO.
>
> - Robert

If one turns on /Format /Styles and Formatting, it clearly indicates the current formatting style at the cursor position.

/View /Non printing characters is helpful in showing spacing and paragraph/line ends.

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Rory O'Farrell <[hidden email]>

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Re: reveal codes

Robert Funnell
On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Rory O'Farrell wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 07:08:16 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
> Robert Funnell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> ...
>> To me the value of RevealCodes in WordPerfect was not just in seeing
>> the structure but in therefore being able to position the cursor
>> before or after (or inside or outside of) a particular style. This
>> would be just as useful in OO and LO.
>
> If one turns on /Format /Styles and Formatting, it clearly indicates the current formatting style at the cursor position.
>
> /View /Non printing characters is helpful in showing spacing and paragraph/line ends.

As far as I can tell, neither of these things helps what I'm referring
to. As an example: let's say you apply the Emphasis character style to
a sequence of characters, and then later want to add some following
characters that don't have that style. If you just position your
cursor after the last styled character, the text you add will also be
styled. You need to position your cursor after the first _unstyled_
character that follows, insert your new text, and then back up and
delete that first unstyled (and now unwanted) character. With
RevealCodes turned on in WordPerfect, you would just position your
cursor after the end-of-style indicator and start entering unstyled
text.

- Robert


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Re: reveal codes

Andrew Pitonyak
In reply to this post by Rory O'Farrell
On 2017-08-10 7:14, Rory O'Farrell wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 07:08:16 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
> Robert Funnell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 10 Aug 2017, Stephen Nichols wrote:
>>
>> > Let me clarify.  The “codes” revealed are not what your
>> thinking of — tags with bracketed text, XML code, etc..  I think
>> that the viewing option should more properly be called “Reveal
>> Structure” since it simply shows what formatting instruction has
>> been given and where, specifically things like, typeface and size,
>> indentations, line spacing, etc..
>>
>> You're right that what is wanted is not an exact display of the
>> actual
>> internal coding but rather some visual indication of what's going
>> on.
>>
>> To me the value of RevealCodes in WordPerfect was not just in seeing
>> the structure but in therefore being able to position the cursor
>> before or after (or inside or outside of) a particular style. This
>> would be just as useful in OO and LO.
>>
>> - Robert
>
> If one turns on /Format /Styles and Formatting, it clearly indicates
> the current formatting style at the cursor position.
>
> /View /Non printing characters is helpful in showing spacing and
> paragraph/line ends.


I tested the reveal codes macro years ago. last time I tried it, I had
to make changes to the underlying code to make it work. I don't remember
exactly what it showed, or, how it showed it. Also, it did not entirely
work as the system worked in WP, not that I entirely remember how that
worked, but, here are some issues with reveal codes in LO / AOO.

The first issue is related to styles. So, if you want to know why your
text is bold, it may be because there is a style making it so and it may
be because someone applied direct formatting. So, coming out of the
gate, there is always the question of what does one show with reveal
codes? Do you show the styles or just the formatting? For sure this is
useful functionality.

I don't even remember exactly what WP did. Could I start "BOLD" and
then not turn it off? This is not possible the way that AOO is written.

I think that the bottom line is that "sure, it would be great", it is
possible to do, the created extension provides (does it still work?)
some approximation, the developers have not yet considered it
sufficiently interesting to work on it (and I think it would require
significant time to integrate it).

I think that the best path forward would be to open a feature request
and then if sufficient people vote for it or express interest, it might
be done.

Andrew Pitonyak


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Re: reveal codes

Andrew Pitonyak
In reply to this post by Robert Funnell


> As far as I can tell, neither of these things helps what I'm
> referring to. As an example: let's say you apply the Emphasis
> character style to a sequence of characters, and then later want to
> add some following characters that don't have that style. If you just
> position your cursor after the last styled character, the text you
> add
> will also be styled. You need to position your cursor after the first
> _unstyled_ character that follows, insert your new text, and then
> back
> up and delete that first unstyled (and now unwanted) character. With
> RevealCodes turned on in WordPerfect, you would just position your
> cursor after the end-of-style indicator and start entering unstyled
> text.

well, the only difference is that you may NOT be able to position the
cursor outside of the formatting mark. something that reveals the codes
would clearly show that this is the case. So, what you would need to do
is to place the cursor as close as you can get, and then manually set /
change the style. The only functionality that you are missing is things
such as:

1. An ability to force the cursor past a formatting mark or style,
which may not be possible to do with AOO. No, really.
2. The ability to delete a formatting mark from within "reveal codes"
window. I think you could do that in WP anyway.

Both of these could be worked around in a native version of the
capability, but, for now, that is not available, and, I do not expect it
to be available anytime soon since I have not heard that anyone was
working on it. So, the question is, (1) how can you request that it be
added [open a request] and (2) how can you use what is currently
available to solve your existing "problem" to accomplish your goal. The
way that I usually work around this is by placing the cursor where I
want it and start typing. if it starts working in Bold, and I don't want
bold, then I highlight it and make it not bold (as one example). Would
it be faster to press the "show me codes" key, move the cursor, then
type? Maybe. I don't think that we have the problem with empty tags in
AOO that we had in WP, so I don't think that you need to use it to
remove empty tags.

So, you might want to find that reveal codes macro (I think that
someone had a link to it) and give that a try, see about opening a
feature request, and, if you are unsure how to work around a specific
behavior, describe it.

It will not be the same, even if someone can carefully defines how it
should work in AOO (because it cannot be exactly the same because of
styles). Best of luck

andy